Technological Sovereignty and Human Connection: A Conversation with Ambassador Philip Thigo

In this reflective episode of A Legacy of Purpose, Dina H. Sherif welcomes Ambassador Philip Thigo, Special Envoy for Technology for the Republic of Kenya and Founding Director for Africa at the Thunderbird School of Global Management. Together, they explore the intersection of technology, policy, and human connection in driving Africa’s future. Ambassador Thigo shares personal insights into his values-driven journey, the bold vision for technological sovereignty, and the challenges of redefining Africa’s role in the global economy.

This conversation delves into the importance of mindset shifts, collaboration across borders, and the urgent need to build a self-sustaining African innovation ecosystem. Through candid storytelling, Ambassador Thigo paints a hopeful picture of a connected, empowered continent while offering a call to action for leaders, entrepreneurs, and citizens to embrace their collective potential.

Key Topics Discussed:

•Values-Driven Leadership: How generosity and purpose shaped Ambassador Thigo’s career in public service and technology.

•The Case for Technological Sovereignty: Why Africa must invest in its own innovation infrastructure to break free from cycles of dependency.

•Mindset and Connection: The critical role of human connection and collaborative pan-Africanism in driving meaningful change.

•Challenges of AI and Advanced Technologies: How Africa can define its own technological future and prevent exploitation in the Fourth Industrial Revolution.

•A Legacy of Purpose: Ambassador Thigo’s vision for a more connected, empowered Africa.

Host: Dina Sherif
Produced by Donovan Beck

For Media Inquiries:
Donovan Beck

Communications and Storytelling Coordinator

Legatum Center for Development and Entrepreneurship

Sloan School of Management
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
292 Main St, E38, 5th Floor, Cambridge, MA 02142
don_beck@mit.edu

Transcript

Dina Sherif: 0:09

So I'm very excited today to welcome His Excellency, Ambassador Philip Thigo. Ambassador Philip the go is a renowned technology and public policy expert, although he went to Princeton, I went to Harvard. That's okay. He's a special envoy for technology for the Republic of Kenya and the founding director for Africa at the Thunderbird School of Global Management at Arizona State University. He's also somebody I now consider a good friend and mentor and somebody who calms me down. So Philip, welcome to our podcast, Legacy of purpose. It's wonderful to have you with us, and I'm excited to get your thoughts and your story out to our audience. So you know, the first question I want to ask you is, you have had this remarkable career that is really at this intersection of technology and public policy and public service, and from your time as executive director of infonet Africa that was like over a decade ago, and your current roles that you have right now. I mean, the truth is, if you wanted to, you could have actually pursued a career that was way more lucrative in the private sector, but you push to take this path of service and doing good in the world and always having meaning at the center of the work that you do. That's probably not by accident, no, and that usually comes from where we come from, as our in terms of our family, in terms of our upbringing, the values that were instilled in us. So can you share with us the values that drove you to pursue such a unique career path that has impact at its core, when you could have really joined the corporate sector and made a lot of money and worked in the technology space, frankly, but instead, you're thinking about how to bring technology into the Public Sector.

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 2:20

Thank you so much, Dino, of course, of course, I met you a year ago, and this is sort of kindred spirit, I think is the first conversation I'm having with on this sort of reflection from where I came from. I think Alin Ali in our lives, right? So a lot of us always try to find meaning, and in most cases, you sort of have these options in terms of certain parts that you need to take. I think for me, I've always been a product of of generosity, and so I think that really informed my choice in terms of a career pathway, because we may think these are coincidences where generosity kind of guides you in certain directions, and I have not regretted since I basically was brought up in Kibera. Kibera is one of the slums in Kenya, and I've seen people who I grew up with, and I've seen the potential outcomes if I did not take some certain steps of some certain parts to where I am today. And so part of the values that I had for me, and the values that I was one, is generosity, and you have to give, not because you have extra, you have to give of yourself with what you have. Because I think sometimes we sort of assume you only give because you can have a lot of things to spend. So it's been an amazing journey, and many times I look at my friends who went in corporate because I was not in technology myself. I mean, we were a big cohort, and many of them are not happy, right? So yes, you have money, but then you're still struggling to find meaning. And so for me, taking this pathway of giving back and and, and in Africa, the giving back, you really have to be in public service, yeah, because it's a thankless It's a thankless job, so you don't do it to be thanked. You do it because you're given. But

Dina Sherif: 4:24

where did that idea of generosity come from? Like when I think, you know, my mom always used to say, if you can help, somebody help, no matter what it is, if there's something you can do to help and somebody asks you always do it. And that has kind of guided my life, and I often hear her voice in my head.

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 4:43

I'm like, you same thing, yeah. The problem is, I've had a grandmother and a mother, so both of them, well, it's kind of annoying, right? So sometimes they come and say, oh, you know, I do not have X. You buy them the X. The next time they're like, you know, you want to buy me another one. I said, so. So why do they. Go, oh, you know, somebody came and I saw they didn't have so I had to give them what I had. So, so, basically, these things kind of creep up on you, right? So, so that's, that's our mothers, that's my whatever they have, they give, they give. And so, oh, because, you know, so you work, you, I mean, I have you, you could always buy me, but they don't have anybody. And women, honestly, and this is quite interesting, that women have always shaped my career. When I came out of school, there's a lady, Dr Corinne Kumara, remember she got me out of the UN I was volunteering for something. And again, she it was quite interesting. So when you ask I would have been in corporate or not in civil society. It was quite interesting, because she, she was a sociologist, yeah, but then she could see what I could do with technology. And then at my very I mean, I was like, 22 or 23 and her point was, what if I would ask you to do something that was out of the ordinary? And I said, What is it? He said, listen, it was quite interesting. And this was in New York during the commission, instead of CSW March. It was the first time I saw snow. That's another story. But she put$1,300 on the table. That was my job interview, $1,300 $1,300

Dina Sherif: 6:16

and then what did you do with those $13

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 6:19

like, listen, I ran this organization. Nelson Mandela is the president. So that was, of course, a hook. I'm African. Come on, Mandela, you don't have say anything else. We have three offices, Bangalore, Cape Town, Geneva, HQ in Tunisia. This, this $1,300 can get you to those four destinations if you think you want to proceed what you're doing now, take the $1,300 and just do something with it. But if you want to do something different, whenever you're ready, take a flight and come. So that's what happened. And

Dina Sherif: 6:56

you went to Tunisia, right? So

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 6:58

you went to Tunisia was different. So of course, it's so funny again. Back to my mother. Came to Nairobi with the $1,300 and me and my mom are looking at $1,300 right? So you can see us, you can imagine the picture. So two of us are like, but you know the school fees to pay here. There's something to do there. Just looking at this $1,300 you're like, Listen, if somebody asks you to do this, it's not a coincidence. My mother was always I do not believe in coincidences. So nothing happens. Nothing happens by chance, or went to tunis, that's how I speak Arabic. It was different. And my life has never been the same.

Dina Sherif: 7:34

Amazing. Yeah. So it's interesting how certain things happen and push you in certain directions, and somehow you found yourself as the Special Envoy for technology for your country, Kenya. Now as a part of that role, you've been asked to be bold and to disrupt what does that mean in a country that is also struggling from an educational perspective when it comes to math and science and the overall performance of math and science, because, like many of us, you know, from a lot of the markets, I come from Egypt, and I love my country. I know that you love your country and but we also have to be constructive in what needs to change in our countries and how we critique them. So how do you think Kenya and other governments across growth markets, Africa, Latin America, Asia, Middle East? How do you think all of our markets should examine and address some of the broken systems or policies that we have that are inhibiting our ability to truly innovate and grow. Got

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 8:48

it. I mean, so the role of a special envoy of technology, and this is something I credit His Excellency, the President in this is is having a vision that then begins to understand the role of technology in transformation is because the sort of the current architecture, unless you begin to will technology, then you sort of have a lot of challenges. Because one thing you realize that our development historically has been resource intensive, yeah, and the resource intensive are the things that you're mentioning, right? So, as much as we have raw material, or sort of the sort of, how do I say it's sort of the sort of the hardware of development, we've not had the capability to sort of turn to manufacture, right, to sort of transform it into into, sort of, like into sort of goods, instead of the consumer goods or things that people can can consume. It's always being done somewhere else,

Dina Sherif: 9:45

no, but we've been put in this box of producer, you

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 9:49

know, we produce what you don't consume, and consume what you don't produce, right? So that's always the African narrative, right?

Dina Sherif: 9:54

You know, we send, uh, we send our cocoa, cocoa, and then we eat it. From another send

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 10:01

out coffee. Then when

Dina Sherif: 10:03

I mean, let's be honest, that's the overall state of this continent has been a place of extraction. That's true

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 10:12

and it and think about it and its legacy of colonialism, right? So, so, so you need something different, and you need something disruptive, and that's why the boldness comes in. Of course, it makes many people uncomfortable, because the discomfort comes from losing power, because it's one thing to be to have a system that continues to ensure that the African continent is that provider of labor or raw material, and not necessarily an African continent, then can harness its labor, harness the raw material for its development, but also serve the world, right? So, so that's that, that's been our legacy. And so the boldness you need is to confront that burden of history. And so I think having somebody like me, I have a colleague who's on climate, then you begin to sort of one, send a signal that we know, right? Because knowledge is important. The second thing is that we are doing something about it, and and we are being very deliberate. And so what are you doing? Tell

Dina Sherif: 11:13

us what you're doing. So, so

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 11:14

first thing, of course, is, is making sure we are very much on the table. Because if you're not on the table, as you said, you on the menu, on all conversations, on all conversations. Secondly is that we don't come as Kenya. We come as the continent, because that's always been the problem divide and rule, right? So we are all divided in Anglophone, you know, Lusophone, Francophone, and all the phones. So that's our joke. Exactly. Not. We never said this. Who said we are men? Are you know, and so you know exactly. So it's been, it's been, it's been a tactic to divide us and not to see ourselves as one cohesive unit. A lot of our infrastructure is extractive. Our rail was never built for an internal network. It was built to go to the coast. This is the African story. All roads go to the coast and to remove so we don't necessarily not to connect, not to connect internally, yeah. And so basically, that's what also we are doing in terms of, you see what, when I'm talking about technology and and sort of the fundamental infrastructures for AI, whether it's compute, how do we do compute that we can work ourselves. How do we fiber in Africa, not the fibers that are coming and landing into the coast? That's fine. But then, how do you ensure that we can have our internal connectivity to the last month?

Dina Sherif: 12:33

Yeah, I love this. The idea of how do we build, not for extraction, but for connection, is such a powerful thing, but, you know, let's go back to this idea of AI, because, you know, you're, you're one of, I mean, you're an ambassador, but you're also an ambassador for AI, and you were appointed to this special committee by the UN Secretary General around how AI can do good for our societies, but for advanced technology like aI generative. Ai, ai is evolving at an extremely fast paced pace. And you know, when I hear people talk about AI, and I have, there's a professor at one at MIT who's phenomenal, always says, you know, AI can transform systems depending on how we use it. It can help us leapfrog and address some of these broken systems that we have, whether it be in agriculture, education or healthcare. Now, my question to you is, you know, now we see this new wave of people in Africa talking about AI. AI can transform, but there are certain realities still right. There are certain realities in our systems that need to be addressed, which is, we can't really make use of AI without the right infrastructure. You know, a big part of Africa still doesn't have access to the grid, so they don't access to electricity. A big part of Africa is still not being educated. Or if they're being educated, they're not being educated well, and they are not. Digital Literacy continues to lag behind. You know, people talk about Kenya, they say, oh, Kenya, it's the most digitally connected country it is, but in reality, it's not, yeah, right. It's not so what, and like very clear items, what are, what needs to change in order for Africa as a whole to really embrace AI as a as a pathway to leapfrogging into economic agency that would prevent the extraction and allow for connection. Got it

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 14:47

so I think the first thing that I always say, and that's why it is important to be sort of on the table, is when I got appointed by the United Nations Secretary General in. The first thing was to think about sort of one of six Africans on the table, potentially just two of the six Africans who actually live in the continent to be in this advisory body. The first composition, of course, is, how do we define AI from an African perspective? Because there's, of course, a dominant, uh, sort of sort of narrative around what AI is. And many people come into this space from a very nuanced geopolitical perspective, right? So, so for me, that's, that's the first point is we should not, and nobody should define what AI is to Africans,

Dina Sherif: 15:42

as in, the first step is to define what it means to

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 15:45

us, right? It's not about self driving cars. It's not about vanity. It's about what can we do with this technology to advance us and our continent? I think for me, that that needs to be the

Dina Sherif: 15:57

game changer. So then, let's say we do that,

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 16:00

yeah, so the second part, so we

Dina Sherif: 16:04

say, finally, we say, as Africa, this is what advanced technology means to us in our countries. Now, what, what systems do we need to change for this? Which

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 16:16

is so, so now, so then that did that. Then begin, begins to determine your investments, right? Then you begin to prioritize, to say, Listen, at least the sort of the critical infrastructure for artificial intelligence, right? Whether it's talent, and you mentioned that in terms of STEM and how you build a pipeline, whether it's data, in terms of how we build our data, build our data capabilities, our data ecosystems, and then the compute how we invest in that. And then, of course, algorithms piece in terms of how we we ensure that we will produce right? Because, remember, the others are still raw material. We still need to manufacture it. And for me, the algorithms are the sort of the products that you need to use to sort of then begin to address the challenges that we have. So if we invest in the four infrastructure, I think for me, I put it around the compute, because computing is layered right from data centers to to electricity, because, as you know, compute just sucks up energy. So we need to ensure that our energy Why is

Dina Sherif: 17:18

the only place that has that capability right now,

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 17:21

I think historically, right so. If you look at Morocco, historically is the because of proximity to Europe. You sort of had had sort of early, early sort of investments in broadband. They had a DSL for those of us, for those of you are, some of as well as old as we are because of our age. I still don't have white hair, yeah, well, I do. I color my beard, but, but basically, so some countries just because of proximity and Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, so those North African countries, just because of proximity to Europe, have been able to adopt these technologies in early stage. I mean, this is not new. I lived in Tunis. We had, we had good connectivity. That's where we had the world summit of information society in 275 where there are very solid, solid sort of education system. They have amazing engineers in that part of the world across in terms of human capital, when you look at that. So I think, but you can see those are the CO investments, you know? And you said, so part of human agency is actually investing in people, right? And so if we can define what AIS was, then it means we will put money in what matters. So yes, I agree to build roads, but the roads are not the infrastructure of the future. We need yes to build roads, but also prioritize connectivity, prioritize talent in terms of data scientists and machine learning experts, but also the many disciplines that then are the disciplines of the future, plus AI, otherwise you have obsolete education systems that produce learners who are not fit for the market, and so you just have this, you know, this sort of meal that turns out people who, who cannot then, yeah, and I

Dina Sherif: 19:04

mean, you know, you and I were educated in the US, and it's a great privilege, but in the in the US, there's such a huge investment in R D. We have the infrastructure for R D. You know, on any of the universities that you and I went to, whether it be Princeton Harvard or where I'm teaching, where I am now at MIT. MIT being the lead obviously, in that the infrastructure the labs exists to do that, R and D. How many universities in Africa have that capability? Not many. And how many governments on the continent are actually investing the right percentage of their GDP back into R and D that is required for us to start building our own innovation capacity?

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 19:54

I get it, and if you see, and part of this is, I think it's a design challenge of. Colleagues who really emphasize on this particular piece, again, tiny colonial legacy, because part of part of sort of decolonization must also be dismantling the colonial architecture. Because, yes, you can be emancipated. You can get independence. But then if you do not deconstruct that infrastructure, I think it's a Nigerian poet who said, you know, the master's tools cannot dismantle the master's house, and so if we don't also deconstruct these tools, then it doesn't make sense. And that's why I think you've seen Kenya, for example, the President has been very adamant in terms of reforming the education system, because you cannot inherit the system that is built to subjugate no

Dina Sherif: 20:51

education. We've seen it happen so many times. Reform education, they reform curriculum. That's incremental. Then you have to reform the teachers and the entire system of education, and that's where technology, and

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 21:04

that's where the models come, right? So, yeah, and, I mean, it's, again, Masters tools, right? So you go, you copy what the master is doing, right? So do a little bit of, you know, do a little bit of replication, right? So it's working there, so we'll replicate it. Of course, we know how other goals, or we do incremental, which is reforms, or you can be both and totally do a differentiated model. And for us, a differentiated model needs to be an African model. An African model needs to also understand where the world is right now, that if we have the youngest population, if we have all the raw materials, including 60% of arable land. If we have now a very educated African population, they're not many, but at least we have a critical mass. We have a middle class. We didn't have this. We definitely have, yeah, we have industries now. We have companies now that are here. Why can't we to your connected story, harness this collective capability, make it connected to start to deliver for the continent, so that the continent then aspires to what the continent should be. Because it's it seems like everybody sees our value. We don't. Well,

Dina Sherif: 22:19

that was by design. That's my point. I mean, it sounds like what you're describing, on some level, is utopia, but in my mind, it sounds like you're describing Africa pre colonial times. You know, I just released a paper that I co wrote with one of our fellow alum, who's from Senegal. Her name is Khadija, and you know, she and I, we thought a lot about the African narrative. And, you know, I'm Egyptian, oftentimes people deny me my African heritage, because somehow during colonial times, you know, there was us up here and everyone down here, and we know what that divide was about, and it was about skin color had nothing to do, but the reality is we are one Africa, and when it comes to the African narrative, it's still one African narrative, and that often comes with a lot of negative connotations. And she and I spent quite a bit of time looking at African history, pre colonial times, and you know, we saw you, if you looked at maps pre colonial times, the trade routes Africa was this beautiful open continent, with trade happening in every direction and Egypt, the science and the innovation that came out of my country, or mathematics was born on this continent, medicine, science. It was always a part of who we who we were. And then colonial times came, and somehow we found ourselves trapped in this narrative of scarcity and dependence and less than and that was by design so that the extraction could continue. I mean, we're being very bold and controversial here, and I know some people won't like what we have to say, but the reality is, like I hear you and I say when you talk about technology, and we have to be bold, and we have to really think about in order for technology to transform Africa, it also requires that governments and citizens stop saying things like, we're broke, we don't have the ability to invest in the right infrastructure, that scarcity mindset, or we we won't be able to do it. There's this kind of, you know, limit. We're not good enough. But the reality is, we do have the talent, and a lot of our talent is supporting what is happening in the United States or Europe or other advanced economies. And also, you know, we're not thinking about how to look inwards and say, there's talent in Egypt, there's talent in Kenya, there's talent in Nigeria, there's talent. Talent in Ghana, there's talent in Tanzania in South Africa. How do we take all that talent and use it and share that talent for the greater good and for the greater good of Africa? So my question to you is, how? Because you always talk about Africa, you say Kenya, but then you say Kenya is only as good as the rest of Africa and our ability to really connect and start trading with each other. But, you know, in the end, it sounds like you're saying this is all about mindset. Yes.

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 25:34

Oh, it's totally about mindset and culture. Its mindset is culture, but, and this is the point, right? So, and it's good. You mentioned, sort of the rich history we had, whether it's the library in Alexandria or Tim Bucha or Songhai or the Mali, you know, we had city states before anybody. Exactly so. And so, I think for me, remember until there was sort of a defined formal process that valorizes knowledge. All of a sudden, civilizations became stupid, right? Because then a certain people defined all of a sudden, overnight, created a yardstick,

Dina Sherif: 26:21

but if we want our material, but that's

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 26:25

the point, right? So it's to create a yardstick that then they understand it, so that all of you have to measure up to that yardstick. So then that yardstick, then is what valorizes whether you know you don't know. Yeah, right. So for me, and that's the boldness, right? So the point, the point that Africans now should be talking about, and that's where technology comes in, is we can actually create a yardstick on our own. That's what leapfrogging is. That's what we've done with mobile telephones. That's what we've done with with mobile payment. We've created a yardstick, right? So as much as you have exactly, right? So as much as you talk about financial inclusion, we are challenging the notion of financial inclusion in your model, because your model financial inclusion is having a bank account. Um, notion the first

Dina Sherif: 27:07

people to say, you know, you don't need to go to exam. Exactly that happened here, exactly in Kenya, and that is so it has been that is not being used,

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 27:16

of course, and because, and again, to your mental challenges, and because we are not built to praise or to talk about ourselves, but just not built that way, and that's a struggle in this world that you really have to articulate,

Dina Sherif: 27:32

or were built to think it was an exception,

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 27:35

exactly

Dina Sherif: 27:37

happenstance, right? Opened up this whole space for FinTech and digital banking and how to use a phone, right? That all happened here before it happened anywhere else, right? Seen as like, Oh, that was like a fluke instance.

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 27:56

So I think again, and it's something that sort of you keep on mentioning, is that we need to have more conversations, yeah, because part of having this conversation is affirmation, and we need to affirm ourselves. I don't need anybody else to come and affirm us to break these barriers. And that's what technology has done before. I mean, it's ridiculous, but it's more expensive to travel in the continent, then

Dina Sherif: 28:22

out of the continent. Oh, my God, I hear you. That's the point. To different places like by design keep us separated. We need to address this. That's

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 28:32

the thing, right? So, but see, technology does that. We can be inspired and and it's easier to build that digital infrastructure than build the old infrastructure. Imagine building an airport, then getting planes to run, then getting planes to sort of land than just, you know, because people to people is already happening, right? And you need to do this at scale. How many people can still need airports? We need them, but how many people can travel over? How many people can connect via, via the internet. I think for me, it's more it's more easy to move that way in terms of digital public goods than moving people. And the more people start to connect and engage, the more we start to sort of have this affirmation, so the more we need to understand ourselves. Yeah, you know, and language with technology now is not a barrier. I can have a quick translate. AI can quickly translate. Mike is way and wall off, and we can have a conversation, yeah, that without a French then English intermediary, right? So why do we have to go into those languages, and not just our own languages, right? And that's what technology, I think, in my view, can do. But we just need to believe that we need to build those data sets, yeah, of our own languages. So

Dina Sherif: 29:45

I'm going to ask you a little bit of a controversial question, and it's about something you said to yesterday to my fellows, and because yesterday, we talked a lot about geopolitical, geopolitics, you know, I I. As Dina, I have this like incredible obsession with economic sovereignty and the need for entrepreneurship to be our pathway to creating economic agency and less dependency on those who have historically extracted from the continent. But I feel like you have a different fear, which is that advanced technology can be another tool to keep us colonized. And you use a term called, I think, technological sovereignty, that must have been on your mind for a while. What is your big concern?

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 30:43

It does. So if think about the first, second, third industrial revolution, right? So they and

Dina Sherif: 30:49

the fourth revolution, this is our moment, if we don't, thank

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 30:53

you. And so if you look at the pattern, right? So the pattern is Africans have always been the raw material, or providing the raw material, so either labor or just from our from Earth, right? Diamonds, exactly. So in the fourth industrial revolution, unless we dislocate, unless we disrupt that pattern, then there's a problem. It's happening now, right? So from Colton to to rare earth minerals, to green minerals, it's happening right? And then to people, we are still the youngest population, so it means it's happening over in AI in terms of annotation or labeling, right? So the value is still, and I don't want to name companies, but a Kenyan here, and we know this through a BPO, is paid about $200 for labeling for a company that is a multi billion dollar company. So again, right? So it's been in my head in terms of technological sovereignty, which means if we if all the raw materials here, including the labor, which is a young people, then we need to start to shift in a way that we become the creators of the technology, and unless we do that, we'll be perennial subscribers and users of tech. And unless we do it now. So I always talk about beyond agency, there's urgency. If we don't do it now, then the foundations are being set at this time. So, very

Dina Sherif: 32:22

little time, very little to turn this around Exactly.

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 32:25

And so, to your point, we need, we need, it's an all in effort. That's what I keep on saying. We need governments. We need leadership. We need private sector folks. We need people to make hard decisions. Yeah, you know, to it to sort of, because I think for me, I always tell people, you know, it will be a short time that we need to sacrifice, yeah, for all of us to come in to ensure that when the foundations have been set, they're being set in a way that we have a rightful place. So short term,

Dina Sherif: 32:53

long term, long term gain. That's okay, yeah, that's another mindset shift that needs to happen here, right? Because we were so conditioned to think short term and

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 33:05

me, me, me, right? So it's also silo, right? So, I mean, we have pressures. I'm not saying that people don't have economic pressures. People don't bills still have to be paid,

Dina Sherif: 33:15

but the pressures are there anyway. And I think if we don't take action now, we're going to end up in an even worse situation. Right? Progress needs to be made, but it needs to be made in a very different way now. And you know, the question I have is that you and I both share this common dream of Africa, you know, achieving economic agency and the exponential growth of the private sector, and we talk about that, and we want to see entrepreneurs across the continent scaling their ventures in the continent. You know, I personally want to see it stop seeing entrepreneurs leave to go scale elsewhere. And that's part of why we created the foundry fellowship, is to create this community of African entrepreneurs who are invested in this continent, who will help each other scale to each other's countries, and who will create ecosystems that are strong and vibrant and integrated. So to be able to have an entrepreneur in Africa connect their ecosystem in Cairo to Nairobi to Johannesburg to Lagos is something we've never had before. And for us to think about our entrepreneurs scaling internally on this continent is also new. But having said that, you know, we also want to see these entrepreneurs be innovation driven Exactly. And that means that you know, because you and I know, Africa is a net consumer of technology and innovation right now, we are a net consumer, and we want to be come a major exporter of innovation over the next two decades, as our population grows and stays young in about, you know, 25 years, one in. Four people in the world will be African, African, yes. So we cannot. We don't have the luxury of continuing to be net consumers. We have to build now. So what needs to change, like what specifically needs to change across Kenya and across our entire continent for us to start becoming net exporters of innovation for this continent to be competing with the United States and and Europe and other advanced economies when it comes to innovation that solves major global challenges the

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 35:35

species you mentioned, right? So one is, of course, is, is this whole creation of of industry, right? So we don't, and I say this with a lot of humility, and I tell people that we have to be honest with ourselves, we really don't have a technology. We don't have the we don't have our industry yet. We have pieces of it. We have innovators here and there, but then we don't have industry. It needs to be cohesive, because we need to do this art skill and to build industry. And I'll come back to this is we need to invest in what matters. I agree that we are within fiscal constraints. I agree that a lot of the countries, the African countries, are in a debt burden. Kenya is not an exception. But then, if we were to invest the little money that we have for developmental expenditure around creating these industries, it means we can turn this debt burden around very quickly, right? Which means same things you're mentioning, how do we put money into R and D? Right? Because, unless our decisions are driven by data, then we, my president says it, then it's guesswork, right? And we cannot be guess working our future when somebody is being very deliberate, because we are working against forces and patients that are not sleeping, because future economies will be determined by who owns technology? Let's be honest. It means determining the future of power and power is not given.

Dina Sherif: 37:06

Power is claimed exactly that. Power is not given. So invest

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 37:10

in R and D, invest in talent, invest on the infrastructure of the future. You are right. 27% of this region, only 27% is connected to the internet. People think it's a lot of people. It's just that we have a few Philips who are loud, right? Few of us loud, very loud people. And all of a sudden, people think it's 100% it is not. So how do you ensure that the entire continent is is connected? I mean, I was given a figure yesterday that kind of had me worried that 900,000 Kenyans are graduating from high school this year.

Dina Sherif: 37:50

900 Yeah, that's not for I mean, Egypt is not we. I think in my country, you know, the co founder of my company also has an education company, he says, And he always says to me, Egypt is under enormous pressure to be able to provide higher education institutions sheer number of people who are going to be graduating, it's a fire hose.

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 38:16

He's like a fire hose. He's like 900,000 somebody's putting a fire hose on you. And so I think those are the pieces, right. So we need to think about, where do the 900,000 go every year, right? And unless we build that pipeline, pathways, right? So pathways in terms of meaningful, sort of career paths, but then that's a challenge. I think finally, for me, is that, and I cannot have emphasized this, and what technology can do dinner, really for me, is to redefine pan Africanism, right? Because pan Africanism, in my view, and part of our bringing, were lucky, and like the current generation was, we were lucky to sort of in our early days, to have seen what Pan African was in terms of when a continent comes together to say, we will work together to emancipate every state, right?

Dina Sherif: 39:11

Like I remember my father used to say, oh, you know, there was a time when Cairo University, it was a big people all over Africa would come and study at Cairo University and

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 39:21

Mali maker, you know, Ben Bella, you know, we, I know these things, right? But NASA, you know, single from Senegal Corona, you know, so we, we knew these folks. And they were not just names. These folks were about real action, real connectivity, never you know,

Dina Sherif: 39:41

real leadership. It had a vision. This is the thing that a vision. And they knew that,

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 39:47

you know, it wasn't that I'm Egyptian, I'm an African, you

Dina Sherif: 39:51

know, and I think there was this idea that we were never going to achieve what we wanted to achieve alone, and it needed to happen in the collective exactly

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 39:59

so. So then, why can't we recreate that spirit? See, that's my point. So we need a moment, right? And the moment in the 1950s and 1960s was a realization that we need the entire continent to be liberated. That's not different from now. We need the entire continent to be liberated from technology colonialism. So we need technology sovereignty. So

Dina Sherif: 40:27

how do we do that? This

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 40:28

is the point. So we we have the inspiration. First thing is, we need people. It's still about people. It took a nursery. Took a Ben Bell. It took a single it took a it took, you know, it needs a Philip, the girl, those folks, right? Why can't we find ourselves, right? Those guys found themselves without internet, without for you know, we probably had phones, but imagine, even with the challenges of an colonized Africa, yeah, they found themselves, yeah, we have the advantage of connectivity mobility. Why can't we find ourselves and work for the collective good of the continent. Yeah,

Dina Sherif: 41:05

it goes back again to mindset shifting. All comes down to mindset shifting

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 41:10

culture. So be comfortable in the US, but remember, because many of them are comfortable in Russia, comfortable in in Germany, comfortable in the UK, but they were always dreaming

Dina Sherif: 41:20

of home, of home, right? Oh, I'm with you there. So that's I'm with you there. There's no place like home and this country, you say, the continent, not just Egypt. So no, this continent is beautiful. Exactly. This is our home. So hopefully, and we have to invest in this home. So during last year, you know Donovan, who is our storytelling and communication specialist, moderated a panel with you around redefining Africa's narrative, and you said you explained on that panel that African innovators often pursue technology, Not for vanity work, yeah, but to solve real, complex challenges, and that is the nature of our entrepreneur. So Donovan, would like you ask me to specifically ask you this question to share with the audience. Now, how do you unpack that and how do you I mean, why is that so important? But also, how do we create a movement that has these amazing entrepreneurs at the very center of it? You know, I came, before I came to the to this podcast with you, I was in a room with Hilda, oh, you know, and she's a powerhouse, and my fellows, who are powerhouses, and all of them were talking, they were talking talking, talking about, you know, their experience of growing a business in Africa. And in spite of the difficult they made it, and she had an exit, and this person had an exit. And, you know, those stories are somehow hidden, but also these people are not connected. So we have, we built this foundry fellowship to connect these entrepreneurs together. How do we get in Africa? How do we manage to take these amazing entrepreneurs that you've talked about who are solving real, complex challenges? I mean, Hilda is solving the challenge of getting money to small businesses. How do we how do we get all of these entrepreneurs across Africa to start collaborating and connecting together and really pushing for this agenda that you're talking about that would prevent us from having technology be a part of our colonial heritage,

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 43:42

I think, and Donovan, I think, at that time, is packed something in my mind, right, which, in most cases, because I have the advantage of sort of being connected into Phoenix and sort of that ecosystem in Arizona, the issue, but also just Understanding what I see there. If you walk into downtown Phoenix, you see a self driving car, yeah. And in my head, I'm like, Okay, this is fine, but what is it solving? It's not solving anything. It's just the next step of evolution. But then, when I come to Kenya and I go to Eldoret, I see a self driving tractor per agriculture, agriculture Exactly. So that's so, so true to what I was trying to explain to Donovan is, unfortunately, we don't have a luxury to sort of build stuff just to try a technology for the next evolution of it, because that's the linear trajectory for us. It's with our finite resources and the capabilities that we have, we really are sort of geared towards ensuring that that resource is actually fixing something, and that's and that's Spirit of the Entrepreneur entrepreneur in Africa. And so I think the issue for me has been one is, is that? How. We fix the challenge of of capital, and before I came into this podcast, actually, we're having a colleague, a chat with my colleagues, right to say that, you know, what is it that a VC in the Bay Area is seen in an African entrepreneur, that an African government is not and that an African bank is not because a lot of the exits you mentioned are not local. A lot of the exits of the investments are not local investments. They're all somebody in the Bay Area. I mean, what? What metric are they using? And so that that, for me, is we need to fix that. Yeah, if you really, where's African money, the pension funds, the middle, because we know it's there. It's there. The sportsmen, we have, dollar billionaire sportsmen, the family the family offices, right? So we need to begin to turn because they're investing in something, and they're investing in real estate. If you look around me, all these are pension funds building apartments and condos, right? Still investing in all infrastructure, invest in people, invest in beauty, invest in these young risks. Look at the exits. They're quick. The returns are fast. And so again, to to your point around mindset is, how do we turn the current capital infrastructure in Africa to believe its own young people and to invest because somebody else

Dina Sherif: 46:21

is investing. Part of that requires that we create our own public markets. There you go. So those are

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 46:26

the pieces that I believe we need, we need to do, but also, who's going to de risk it? Which comes to one of my roles that I think in terms of an evangelist in another way, is, how do I surface these innovations, and using this platform both my president and the officer he's given me is to sort of then become that microphone, because then I don't have any bias. I'm not benefiting from it, but it's to show what is possible in the continent. My colleague and I, Kate, always talk about doing business in Africa, right? So I've not seen anybody talking to anybody around doing business in Africa, right?

Dina Sherif: 47:07

So those are the pieces. My fellows are

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 47:11

exactly. But then your fellows are doing it. But then who's doing it in a more structured way? Because they're doing it in the very hard way. Think about it, and always say, your fellows are looking down, right? So, so they're busy building that, busy building.

Dina Sherif: 47:24

And then I come in and I make them look up, and I take them to different markets on the continent, and they say, oh, exactly. I'm a Nigerian. I've actually never been to Kenya, but there's a

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 47:34

piece missing dinner does that, but dinner then has to come and start to say, Oh my God, but there's no infrastructure. Oh my god, see the fellows are ready, you know?

Dina Sherif: 47:48

Oh my god, where's the infrastructure? Oh my God, where are the airports to get people? You know, I say this all the time.

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 47:54

This is a thing. So somebody but, but Dina doesn't have to do that, right? So, who makes or gets the continent or that part future ready, and that's where exactly it's government's private sector. It's how we understand our private, public, private partnership models that have be a little bit different. Again, for me, it's an all in effort. Everybody.

Dina Sherif: 48:16

Okay, I'm gonna ask you another question. Oh god, you know? Because when I read your bio, they were like, Oh, these recognitions. You know, Philip Teego is recognized by Mozilla for under the you got the rise. 25 Award is one of the kind of five advocates leading the development of artificial intelligence, ethically, inclusively and transparently. And I've been told that transparency and openness is like very important to you. But you were recently Kenya, on the 16th independence day anniversary, you were awarded the Presidential commendation for the service that you've given to these this country. You've had a lot of great recognitions in your career, and I understand that. You know, when people see you and recognize what you're doing, that can also feed your ego. And you know, there not many of us out there exercising leadership and trying to create change. It's not, it's not something you see all the time, right? And then sometimes, when you recognize it, can feed your ego. But how do you put that aside and continue to stand in your purpose?

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 49:35

I think we've come full circle. We always forget where we came from, yeah, right. So I think for me, I It's, it's, it's my North Star, right? My mother always said it and, and that's how we started this. Workers that you have to recognize that you're a product of generosity, and if you're religious, you're a product of prayer, right? So you're not. Uh, nothing happens by design, that there's something or someone who's greater than you and who has defined your purpose, and your purpose is higher than yourself, and so if you have that as your not star, I don't think it's there's no confusion here that is not about you, and it's never about you. It's always understanding that that's your purpose. You You never get ego because of your purpose. That's what you're supposed to do. So whether somebody recognizes you or not, it doesn't matter. So I'll not do it because I didn't get recognition. If I got recognition, it's okay if it works for somebody else. And my colleagues will tell you, I tell them, use it. So for me, right? So if it's if it helps you open a door that I got, X, please take it with we have a joke in the office. Take it for test drive and see what it means, right? But, but for me, I don't think it's that. It doesn't and it comes back to value. Yeah, it comes back to values. So

Dina Sherif: 51:00

my last question, and because you're someone who stands strong in your purpose, and I know that you have this purpose, and everyone who's been listening here, is that you have this purpose of using technology to advance Africa, but to also create technological independence and sovereignty, which is a wonderful purpose. But you know, we're all here for a brief moment in time. And you know, my, my late father always used to say, death is coming. Yeah, it'll come to all of us. We don't know when or how. So be mindful of everything you do in the moments that you have. So my question to you is, with whatever time that you have, what do you want your legacy of purpose to be in Kenya? What do you want to leave behind when people think about Filipino when you're gone, what is that legacy of purpose that you want them to immediately say connected to your name.

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 52:06

I think for me, if the one thing that I think I do very well is to connect people and and to have created a common ground for that connectivity, that it's not that in that room. It's not an ambassador was there or a minister was there. It was people who are in that room as humans had a conversation, and if anything emerged from that, then that's also that's okay. If they work together for that that's okay. If they became friends, that's okay. But if they understood each other in the way that they know that they cannot work together, then that's okay. I think for me, that I'd be happy with that legacy, that I was able to connect humans at a very human level. Because all these things, honestly, and and you've seen, and I'm sure you even through your career, that these are roles, right? So you keep on changing roles. It's a stage. They're not. Yeah, right. So, so I think at the end of the day, in 50 or 60 plus years, if, if that human is still the same, and you're able to connect that person and able to use their life experience to advance somebody else's life, then that's like, it's not about me. Tomorrow, I can leave this job and I'll still be at my coffee house and take coffee and not bat an eye, because nothing has changed in terms of who I am. The role is different. At that time, I'll be a coffee drink. I'll be an ambassador. But then for me, that's the best legacy. And if somebody can walk up to me and I can have that human conversation, then that would be, I think I would have achieved a lot just by then.

Dina Sherif: 53:45

That's beautiful. And I know it to be true, because whenever I see you, you know, you always look at me and see what, what's going on with Dina? Exactly. I went in here today and you said, Oh, you look you look tired. Take a minute. Have a coffee. Exactly. Relax.

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 54:02

These, these. These are papers. You'll come here and call yourself excellency here and there. That's fine, but

Dina Sherif: 54:07

we are not our role, and they don't last forever. Human connection is everything,

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 54:12

and let me tell you, they are fleeting. Roles are fleeting, and people don't understand it. That's why, when people leave the results, nobody calls them because they were their roles. People call you because of your role me. You call me because I'm your friend. Even if you didn't like me, you'll still talk to me at some point, right? So, but, but, yeah, but, but you're not calling a role. So I hope, hopefully for me, that's something that, and again, coming back to my mentors, right? So it's the same thing, right? That that ultimately we are humans, and how we treat each other is important,

Dina Sherif: 54:45

and maybe that's the key to unlocking connection in Africa, is for all of us to start seeing each other.

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 54:53

I should not see somebody as a Ugandan, you know, or a Tanzanian, and all the cliches that

Dina Sherif: 54:58

come with that right move all the. And the other ring Tanzanian

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 55:01

is it's a human being. You so happen to be Tanzanian. So happen, right? But you're still human. With all your your diversity, that's still Tanzanian. So let's remove the cliche, the fake stuff and those, and that's fluff. Ultimately, I want to talk to Tanzanian because you're in Tanzania, and I think there's something we can do together, right? And that's a human to human. That's a human, right? So that's what, that's what happened at the borders, right? That was butter trade, right? So, until somebody came, came up with me with a yardstick, you know, we used to exchange cows and salt,

Dina Sherif: 55:39

until somebody created a border, like drew a line,

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 55:42

and then I said, There's no way you can trade salt and cows. Yeah, but at the human level, somebody knew you have what I need, and I have what I need. At the human level, can we exchange it?

Dina Sherif: 55:56

And that's and you're going to change that in Africa Exactly. We have to do that. We have to do we have to do it. And

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 56:05

I really have to do it. Thank you so no one else will do it.

Dina Sherif: 56:08

We'll do it. Thank you so much, Philip. I appreciate you, and I appreciate the time. Thank you so much, and I'm I feel very humbled to also call you a friend. Me too.

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 56:21

Need to move back though.

Dina Sherif: 56:22

Yeah, I will. It's coming. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Amb. Philip Thigo MBS: 56:26

Thank you for having me.