“Resilience Isn’t Survival; It’s Transformation”: A Conversation with Dr. Alaa Murabit

Dr. Alaa Murabit’s remarkable journey—from founding The Voice of Libyan Women during the Arab Spring to becoming a global leader in health, equity, and sustainable development—is a testament to her belief in radical resilience. In this episode, Dr. Murabit reflects on the values that shaped her career, the challenges of advocating for women’s leadership in global systems, and the transformative power of faith and community.

With practical insights drawn from her groundbreaking TED Talk and her role at the Gates Foundation, Dr. Murabit discusses why resilience requires reimagining not just our systems but also our stories. “You can’t fix the world without fixing health and climate,” she reminds us, offering actionable advice for creating lasting impact in our communities.

Host: Dina Sherif
Produced by Donovan Beck

For Media Inquiries:
Donovan Beck

Communications and Storytelling Coordinator

Legatum Center for Development and Entrepreneurship

Sloan School of Management
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
292 Main St, E38, 5th Floor, Cambridge, MA 02142
don_beck@mit.edu

Transcript

Dina Sherif: 0:10

So welcome back to a legacy of purpose Podcast. Today, I'm super excited to welcome Dr Alaa Murabit, a physician, a global advocate, a visionary leader, someone I like to call a close friend, but her journey from founding the voices of Libyan women to shaping international policy at the United Nations and most recently, the Gates Foundation, has redefined what radical resilience and leadership mean in our world today, perhaps what's most important to me is that I get to spend the next hour with a dear friend who I was just saying I'm extremely proud of I deeply admire and respect all the work that you've done over the past years. It's just incredible. I met you. I think it must have been maybe 11 or 12 years ago, and what you have accomplished in that time, in just that short time, is nothing short of astounding. And you've made such an incredible impact on the world. And your impact spans health, women's rights, climate resilience, the voice for women and religion. I can go on and on, but I I love the way everything you do is done with courage, with collaboration and extreme compassion for those who are not always served in our society. So I want to thank you for everything that you do, and I want to welcome, you again to our podcast, and I hope that everybody listening finds this conversation as inspiring as I'm sure is going to be. So thank you for joining us today. Thank

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:51

you for having me. I notice you, like very purposefully, admitted that the first time we ever met, you had been one of the judges for the Ashoka fellowship, and I still remember this. I was 22 years old. I was trying so hard to impress you, and you were interviewing me, and I'm pretty sure I started crying within the first five minutes, and I was like, trying to be like women in peace and security. And then you were like, tell me what inspires you to do this. Tell me about your parents. And I was like, oh my goodness, we're

Dina Sherif: 2:20

we're going there, we're going there. We got deep, really fast, but, but, you know, speaking about your family, incredible family that it is you were, you were born into a family with an additional 10 siblings. You're born in Canada, and you moved to Libya at an extremely difficult time, and you entered medical school in Libya at the very young age of 15. I did not know that about you. No, I didn't know that you were that young when you went into medical school, and since then, you've been on this journey to make the world a better place. So I have two questions, or a couple questions, that I want to ask you about your background. The obvious one, how did your upbringing with 10 siblings as lividians in a small town in Canada? How did that impact your journey and where you are today? It's

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 3:16

an excellent question. I mean, I love that you called them the additional 10. You know, I'm

Dina Sherif: 3:20

well, because you're a powerhouse. They met all the other

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 3:24

10 they would so fundamentally disagree, and they would be right to Mashallah. They're all equally, they're all incredible. But I love that, that I get to be the subject here. No, it was so I was born in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, and and at the time, I was born in the late 80s. At the time, it was quite homogeneous. It's definitely grown since then, but it was quite homogeneous, and we were kind of, very clearly one of the larger families, and particularly larger immigrant families. My parents had come in the early 80s from Libya to Canada, and I have five older brothers and sisters and five younger so I'm the perfect middle and it was, I mean, it was interesting. I never actually appreciated, I think, having so many siblings until I got older. When you're younger, you're, it's, it's, you're so different. It's frustrating and and I think, very naturally as I've gotten older, I've appreciated that so many of the things that fill my cup, be it, you know, like somebody I can turn to for advice, somebody who will kind of really put me in my place when I need to be putting always gonna be your siblings, always gonna and you have them, you don't even have to go looking for it. So it was interesting. It meant that I had kind of this already well cultified tribe, tribe, yeah, cultivated tribe. And it was incredibly helpful and challenging, because, you know, sometimes you do want to do something and go and go rogue, and your siblings kind of hold you accountable really quickly. I think the benefit of that many siblings is very quickly you learn you can be multiple things, and people have different talents that are can be. Very useful. So I was just talking about my younger brother Abdu. He's my mom's favorite, favorite for the youngest, youngest boy and all the youngest kids. My mom has many favorites. That's the first Well, I mean, she has some. She has so many kids, but, but the youngest ones hold a special place in her heart. Because, like, you know, after 11 kids, you're They're leaving. So the youngest boy and youngest girl hold a special place, as do the oldest. And I knew growing up, if there was something in particular I wanted, I could go to my oldest sister or my youngest brother. You could build alliances. You could negotiate the cars. You could kind of trade like, Okay, you ask dad for this, and I'll ask mom for this. And so

Dina Sherif: 5:37

that was that's where you learned your incredible negotiation skills. I

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 5:40

learned everything I know from my siblings, truly, and everything since then from my family. I would say, I've learned everything I know and since then, it has been validated to me, or it has been, you know, I have, I have additional evidence from professional experience, but I learned everything I know from my siblings when it comes to negotiation or or or or Alliance building or compromise, which I'm not very good at, and they will agree with but I learned everything I know from my family. Beautiful,

Dina Sherif: 6:11

beautiful. I love siblings too. They're wonderful. I'm also lucky. I want to talk to you a little bit about Libya and what it means to be Libyan, right? I've spent time with a lot of time with you. I spend time with your husband. You're both Libyan. You're raising children. You're bringing the Libyan parts of you into that. You went to Libya at a very young age. You were 15, and you know, Libya has been going through some tough times, right? What was it like to go to medical school at the age of 15 in Libya as someone who had been raised in Canada up until that point? What was it that happened in Libya that pushed you to say, I need to shake up

Unknown: 6:55

healthcare systems? Well,

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 6:58

it wasn't so it's interesting. I kind of I knew I wanted to be a doctor at a really young age, because my dad, my dad was a physician assistant, a surgical assistant. My sister went into medical school quite young. So I always knew, and you know, when they take you to take your kids to work day and you're supposed to observe from far away, I was the kid who would like come so close that they would have to get get new scrubs on, new new equipment on. So I knew I wanted to be a physician. I particularly thought I wanted to be a surgeon. And so when I finished high school early in Canada, there were only a few options I would have to because of my age. Even with doing a four year bachelor's degree, I probably still wouldn't get in until I was a little older, because there were more mature students and and you go through a process. So I was thinking, Well, do I do I spend the next four to eight years getting degrees until I can go into the path I want, or do I just go into the path I want elsewhere? And my mom had moved to Libya three years two, three years earlier, so I was like, Okay, well, that's where I'll go. And I had loved going to Libya as a kid. I mean, you go when you're seven and eight, it's beaches and ice cream, of course, great beaches, great beaches and delicious ice cream. And everyone's so excited to see you, especially because they know you're leaving in three weeks. And when you move there at 15, as a young lady, I think it's slightly different, because you inherit the reality of living there and what that means. And it's challenging because you don't actually know the rules really. So for me, the very first year was pre med, and was kind of in within medical school. There they the first year is Za daddy, so kind of your preliminary medical year, and it was all in a to be, and I did not know how to read and write a to be well enough to be doing tests in it. So I would, I still remember at the time, this is back in 2005 I would scan the sheets. I would send them to my dad, who was still in Canada. He would help me translate them, and then he would email them back to me. Oh, God, it was such a process. This is before WhatsApp and all of the easier ways to communicate. And so it was genuinely a it wasn't just me. It was more of like a family effort because of because I needed to be able to learn and do this and and so I don't I don't identify medical school or moving to Libya as significantly challenging. I think I identify it as feeling accountable, like I felt accountable to do well because I had made the decision. I knew I wanted medicine, and I now was in a position where I needed assistance because I couldn't speak the language well enough. When I got into first year, it was all in English. And at that point it was kind of my, my show to run, yeah, but that that first year was, was, was, was a challenging one, and then learning the norms and deciding, for most of for most of it, that I didn't actually want to engage with them, and my parents didn't move to the capital. A lot of people, when they move back to their home country will move to the capital. They'll put their kids all in English schools. And we moved to Zawiya, which is 30 minutes away, but it's a much smaller city that my parents, my dad, is originally from, and much more insular. And so you also had kind. Of that reality, which I you know, Canada is not known for those kind of family or tribal affiliations in the same way where it ends up being incredibly important. So I will say I never thought of shaking up health systems. I thought I would be a physician, a surgeon, and that was my intent and purpose, up until, I would say, close to when the revolution broke out. And that was really when it felt like, Okay, I'm seeing all of these people, particularly women. And it was particularly women for me, who were the backbone of the revolution, who were making sure medicine got to the front line, who were smuggling things out of pharmacies, who were cleaning clothes, who were delivering food, who were traveling with gasoline, which was, despite being a very oil rich country, was actually scarce at the time, very scarce, and so all of and really putting themselves at risk. And yet, once the conversation started pivoting to becoming a political conversation where power was really on the table. Women were entirely excluded. And so for me, it wasn't necessarily health systems, it was more, how do you create inclusive systems that reflect the people that build not the people that just get to contribute from them or kind of benefit from them, but the people that actually contribute to them, and oftentimes that's women, and they weren't, they weren't at the table. So that became kind of the mission.

Dina Sherif: 11:27

And then you founded voices of Libyan women, right? As the Libyan revolution was ending, was beginning,

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 11:36

or you did at the beginning? We did it at the beginning, yeah, so we did it at the beginning, and then at the end. So voice of Libyan women was founded. Voice of Libyan women was founded in March of 2011 so the month after, right after, right after the so it was right after, and Zawiya was the first country in the West to rise up. So it was at that point Ben Ghazi had and country, sorry for city in the west, to rise up and and was quickly retaken by government forces. But it was right when the revolution started. And then following that, in November of 2011 that was when we did the one voice conference, which was kind of a really big bringing together all of these advocates and activists, professionals from different, you know, technical leaders, and with the new political, new political parties and the emerging transition government to say, Okay, how do we actually ensure that this doesn't get put to the wayside? And this is part of policy, but we started from the onset, and actually by July, August, had done the women's charter, where we had traveled to many other cities to be able to collect some of their some of their kind of input that they would want reflected in the Constitution. And that went into the next year, because as cities became accessible, we went there so

Dina Sherif: 12:56

so in 2014 that is actually when you and I met, because that's when you were nominated as an Ashoka Fellow, and I was on your judging panel, and that was in Egypt. And the time, at the time, I was still in Egypt, and of course, we had a very moving conversation about the story of why you created that organization. I know there was one particular story that impacted you deeply, but you also you. There was an insight that you shared that Donovan and I found really interesting. You said, outrage is mobilizing, but hope is sustaining, and that is the piece we're often missing. People are outraged. They march, they mobilize and they engage to sustain that we need the hope that is a system that can be changed. And you know, I remember even when I interviewed you for the showcafe Fellowship, I was completely taken back by the incredible wisdom that you had, even at that very young age. What? What was like the exact moment that really pushed you to take action and to mobilize on behalf of women in Libya?

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 14:14

I think initially I was mobilized by rage. I think that's why rage is so powerful. Anger is an incredibly powerful instigator. I saw some of my own friends deeply impacted. I The story I had told you was actually about the loss of a good friend of mine and and so for me, it was and, and it wasn't unilateral. There was a community of women I had I had classmates in medical school. We were in our fifth year of medical school, who were uncomfortable. Going to the hospital, but still had to, because we were told that if we didn't show up our minutes, our files would be thrown out, and we and so for me, it wasn't unilateral. It was a recognition that if we didn't do something, I felt like we would be in a worse spot than we were before, and at that point. Yeah, I still remember we had been sitting down and we had been drafting what would become, you know, Vlw, the voice of Libyan women. It was like this three page essay, and we had put into into Google at the time, like, how do you make sure women get rights? And they gave us all these un frameworks, and there was all of this, and it was like, okay, but in conflict. And I still remember there was a one of the articles had said, Actually, conflict is a window of opportunity, because you can kind of create new norms. Everything shifts in those moments. And so I was like, Well, if we don't take advantage of this, we're never going to get to take advantage of it. And I do think I credit a lot, actually, to being younger and more naive, because I had never engaged in political organization. I hadn't become cynical yet, yeah, well, but I didn't I had never studied it. I never knew it. My assumption was similar to in medicine, like, if you have data and people see the data, people will act based on data. Like, it was very much the science of activism or advocacy, like, and I did not understand yet at that point deeply enough, yet power dynamics, and why, even with the best of evidence, you will not be able to garner political will, and why there is so much resistance. None of that. I was like, no, no, we just need to show proof. And people will change. Policies will change. You know, you show women's agency means that you have more economic opportunity and growth and things will improve. And that, to me, was the kind of The Spark. And then I think what helped was there's a resolution called 1325, which is women, peace and security. And it has flaws, and a lot of people will argue with its implementation. And frankly, there's a lot of things that the UN could do better. But what it does provide is it allows for you, if your country has signed on to it, to take it to leadership and say, hey, you've you've actually said you support this, and yet you're not. And so that became one of the tools I used to be able to say, okay, and it's anchored on women's inclusion in conflict, women peace and security. So how do you ensure that women have leadership roles? How do you engage women in a political and transitional process? How do you also recognize their unique vulnerabilities? So that became the sustaining part, because the outrage was this couldn't happen and should not happen to us. I didn't have a picture of what could look like. And so that framework was like, oh, okay, I can ask for these things, right? And if I can get closer to those things, at least, where on a pathway of progress, right? And that will that's what got me kind of much more involved in the movement. And that's, I think, one of the things that really made me choose, for lack of a better word, whether it would be, you know, the day to day practice of medicine or the day to day work of kind of advocate and systems change and things like that, yeah.

Dina Sherif: 17:38

Well, by the age of 25 you had successfully negotiated and passed a number of resolutions through the United Nations Security Council, and you actually became appointed as the UN High Level commissioner on health, employment and economic growth. And, you know, I remember reading that announcement, and I was like, Wow. You know, that was such a short time between, you know, when you became an Ashoka Fellow, and then when you became appointed as a UN High Level Commissioner. And I was, I mean, it's such a big jump. And I was so impressed, because I remember also, I was nominated and chosen to be a un SDG pioneer, and I remember seeing you at the UN thinking, how far you've come in such a short time. So what led you know you went from being from medical school to starting this organization to advocacy at the highest levels of the UN and in many conversations, you talk about the need, not just for Band Aid solutions, but for real systemic change, which you just mentioned, systemic change that would allow for women's equity, climate resilience, policy reform. This is MIT, and we talk about systems change all the time, and we teach classes on systems dynamics. And here at the center, we have an actual scholar in residence who specialize in systems change entrepreneurship. People define it differently. What is what does all of that mean to you in terms of systems change when you are talking to all of these high level people at the UN who many people perceive to be a relatively ineffective organization.

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 19:32

Oh, yeah. So the, I think the interesting thing there is that the kind of pathway to so not necessarily the jump so with Vlw and I anchor it on everything on the newer campaign. Frankly, at one point I had been we were doing these workshops on women's economic empowerment and agency. We were doing workshops with the Ministry of Labor. We were doing stuff on women's health and health access. We were doing women peace and security. And yet, I started. Noticing we have the same people coming from the same families who I think were already bought into what I was saying. And so it was kind of like, how do we actually get people who disagree with us to show up? And so I started asking, and people would say, like, Oh, it's great for you, even, even like extended family members, like, the work you're doing is wonderful for you, but, you know, not for not for my daughter. And it increasingly became a conversation that was anchored in the in the perception that what I was saying was opposed to Islamic teachings. And that was what I think, for me, is systems change, or kind of the anchoring of all of the work, after which was, at that time, a lot of the kind of global donors, and, you know, European and Western organizations were like, We don't want to talk about religion. Why are you talking about religion? And a lot of the local organizations, and we're like, no, no, don't do this. This only empowers, you know, misused and manipulated rhetoric and and I found that such an interesting case, because I think in order for you to truly transform systems, you actually have to be able to negotiate power, yeah, and I didn't have that as a women, as a young women's rights organization. So what we did do was we actually worked with the Ministry of religion, and we said, Listen, we need your logo on these billboards so people understand that we're not, you know, cherry picking text. And they they were like, Okay, let's those are actual Islamic texts. Those are, you can find them in the holy book, the Quran. Those are Hadith or sayings of the Prophet, and then being able to leverage those. And what we did was, because of the kind of geographic organization of Libya, it's similar to if somebody from New York went down to like Texas and started talking about values and norms, there's a huge amount of power in somebody local to you who you know, who you trust. And so we created a very kind of federalized system of advocacy, where every city created its own city team. They gave it a name. So Benazir was in Manara, which means the lighthouse, because that was a well known symbol to them. And everybody had their own name. These teams across the country would then go and do advocacy in their local communities, and it was made up of their teachers, a former politics like former representatives of men and women and would go to create a movement, a movement. And honestly, the campaign was excellent in that it wasn't just information. But then we did surveys to get in, to get data, because data is hard to get, legitimate data, especially in conflict, is really challenging to get, and you operate off and on assumption. And so from the nud campaign, that ended up being really pivotal, because numerous other countries and organizations replicated the methodology, and I and we used that methodology throughout some of our consultations on women, peace and security. So my first real introduction to the UN was actually as a global advisor for the 15th anniversary of the women peace and security agenda. And that was how I first got involved. And it was those resolutions that I could influence and engage on because of that lived experience. And then from there, I got involved with the UN Sustainable Development Goals, or what would become them, really influencing the peace and justice and strong institutions work. And the commissioner really came from a lot of conversations around if we really want to talk about health and health access, we do actually need to talk about the gender dynamic of it, both in terms of gendered implications for health, but also access opportunity, especially as it relates to economic growth. So that was kind of the pathway. And I do think it all started with a conversation where the assumption wasn't that people who disagreed with me were wrong, but an assumption that I needed to be able to phrase the language, and I do think for systems change, we need to be able to illustrate a world where everybody can see themselves, and everybody can see that their values have merit, and that you can then negotiate them in good faith, rather than come in and say, This is everything you're doing is inaccurate. This is all right, I don't think gets us, gets us as far. So that's probably it might sound to some I know as maybe some in the UN system may be more revolutionary to some more incremental, depending on where you sit on that spectrum, but I think systems inherently want to hold on to their their framework, and being able to both shift pieces and build on pieces, I think can actually be very helpful.

Dina Sherif: 24:13

I love this because essentially you're saying that if you really want to create change, everyone has to be included, and that means that you really need to meet people where they are and create space to have their views also be heard and seen, and then find ways to get closer together 100%

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 24:32

I mean, I think it's, I think it's less about women led or women's and it's more about inclusive

Dina Sherif: 24:37

processes, right? So not there a lot in this world that

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 24:41

we're living in? Well, of course, we're not. But if you look at so, I'll tell you, years ago, this was when I first started, someone who was in was in my extended family wasn't necessarily very close to I had been talking about our work in Libya and and he was like, super resistant. He was like, this makes no sense. I don't know what you're talking about. And I would explain. Be like, no, but listen, and finally, like, he kind of stopped and said a lot. And who's an elder, said a lot. You know, everything you say means that everything I raised my daughters, everything I taught them to believe, all the values that I was raised with by my own family, are all wrong, and you're right. And it was the first time somebody had said that to me. Of like, if you come in here just telling me this is how things should be. You're implying that everything before you was completely inadequate or inaccurate, and at some times, when we talk about it intentionally. So yeah, and I don't think that breeds well for change. I actually think people need to feel like, okay, you see me where I am. I see where you are. We're both not going to get everything we want, but we can come a little closer, we can come a little closer, and it'll be more sustainable. And over time, people build, Inshallah, every generation will build on that. But, but I think otherwise, we see what we're seeing now, which is, you know, we've social change movements happen, and they're not necessarily resilient. Almost immediately you're going to see backlash, and the backlash will be more severe than the initial challenge, absolutely, because we all absolutely, because we all resist change, because we all resist change and so, and that's a very human thing. So I do, I think everybody needs to be able to see themselves, and there needs to be space for everybody at that table. Yeah,

Dina Sherif: 26:14

I want to ask you about your TED talk that you gave in 2015 and it was titled, what Islam really says about women. And that TED talk was viewed by millions, myself included. And in that talk, you spoke about the important need for women to be at the table, to challenge narratives that are wrong and to really take on outdated systems at their very core. And I think you've definitely been, you know, walking that talk and sitting at the tables. But I I'm wondering if you think back to the time of that talk, did you anticipate the massive impact that talk would not just have on your career, but on many other women who saw that talk? I did not.

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 27:16

I think, I don't know if I've told you this story, but I had been in Libya, so I had done the Oslo Freedom Forum a couple of, literally, two days before I flew in for the TED Talk. And it was so unexpectedly overwhelming for me that I called my mom and I said, Can you please come? Because I was like, Oh, I did not realize it was this big, yeah, and there were this many people and and so I and I my dad stayed on the My mom and my mom flew down. My dad stayed on the phone with me as I practiced my speech, because I also didn't realize you needed to memorize it. And I'm not a very good memorizer of speeches, so it was overwhelming. I think the thing I would have, you know, the TED Talk talks about not just women's inclusion, but I have a pretty firm belief. I'm a very proud Muslim. I firmly and I believe in the power of individual faith immensely, because I think it's one of my greatest drivers and one of the ways in which I find strength. But I also think religion as an organized construct has been one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, function in our world, and has created so many I mean, if you look at our our legal process, if you look at law economics,

Dina Sherif: 28:35

tell me I'm Egyptian Exactly,

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 28:38

exactly we are also No but everything anchors from faith, from from this organized religion. And I do think my major kind of focus of it was that we do need to start divorcing religion is an organized tool. Yeah, from from faith. Because I do think that the manipulation and misuse of religion across all major faiths and the unique the unilateral interpretation of religion by predominantly men, has meant that it is absent a very dangerous Yeah, it's incredibly dangerous, particularly for women. It's absent of women's experiences, absent of their lens. And had I known how many people would have viewed that, I think I would have put more time into explaining that distinction, because it was hard for a lot of people to be like, Oh, but you're clearly Muslim, and yet you're saying organized religion is ineffective. And I don't know if that and so if I could go back, I would probably add a sentence or two saying your individual faith, that personal spiritual calibration, whatever you need, that is not the same thing as organized religion. You may associate them together. You may, you know, go to your local congregation, mosque, you know, synagogue, Temple, whatever it might be, and find a lot of community in organized religion. But the construct of organized religion can be an incredibly powerful positive or negative tool, absolutely, and history has shown us for women more often. Negative,

Dina Sherif: 30:01

you know. And I, you know, I'm also a very proud Muslim, and my faith means a lot to me. And I, you know, in in when you're in America, you often get faced with this lens of Muslim women are oppressed, and you kind of look and say, I'm standing here right in front of you, do I look, I'm not oppressed. I mean, there are these big stereotypes around what it means to be a Muslim woman, and when we go back to the very origins of our religion and the first wife of Prophet, Muhammad, Khadijah, and people forget the story. And I love the story, and I say it all the time. Khadija was the most successful entrepreneur in all of Arabia. She was 40 years old. She chose the prophet to wasn't the prophet at the time, to work for her in her business. She proposed to him. She was divorced. She was a woman with agency, and she used that agency, and she made her own decisions, and she financed the Islamic online exactly in its infancy. And somehow I feel that we don't tell that narrative also enough so that women, not just are women of from, where we come from, or Muslim women at large, but also so that Western media can stop only sharing that one narrative, right? That single story narrative becomes very

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 31:33

dangerous well. And so there's, it's such an interesting point to me, because Khadija radila on how was like this, the this kind of economic powerhouse. And then you had most of the Prophet. The sayings of the Prophet were transmitted by one of his wives, Aisha. And you had Hafsah, or the Aloha, who really kind of safeguarded the Quran, the holy book. You had nusayba, who was, you know, kind of protected him in combat and in war. There's so many, there's so many. There's so many incredible stories. And yet I and that, to me, is actually the most kind of reaffirming piece. If I didn't have that historical leg to stand on, then I would actually be able to say, Okay, wait a second. I don't see women represented very well. But then it stops, right? And that's when the interpretation piece comes in, and that's when you notice that, wait this, this is a faith. This religious institution becomes an organizing or the organized institution of it exactly, and that's where you see women. And that's no different

Dina Sherif: 32:26

than by the way, there happened in Christianity. It happened in every major

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 32:29

but in every major industry as well, once it became lucrative, once it becomes and even today, for community health workers, oftentimes community health workers around the world are are either unpaid or very lowly paid. And yet, when you start increasing their salaries, and because of that, you know, there's 70 to 80% women, when you start increasing the salaries, and there's actual, there's an actual paycheck to the job, they start being taken over, actually, by men in the community. So it's not unique to just faith. There is a piece of it where it is about, fundamentally about power, and faith is a very good tool to maintain and own power. But the but the other piece of it is I spent a long time trying to to make people understand the answer to the role of Muslim women or that, and I realized now I have a four year old daughter, you know, who is brilliant and incredible, and I would hate if she grows up feeling like she has to articulate to people how she's not oppressed, or if she feels like that's even a question she has to humor. And so I've stopped like, that's not my audience. I mean, if that's and I don't, I don't think it's a distraction. It's a distraction. It's not even a good faith question. If you're coming at me with that after, you know, after, kind of everything else. And it was an old mentor of mine told me, when I was, you know, 22 he said it i You have four things that always work against you. You're going to be you're visibly Muslim, you are a woman, you're clearly a and, and you're young. And he said, the benefit is that one you'll grow out of, and

Dina Sherif: 34:03

all too soon, truly

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 34:05

and but it was, it was interesting to me, because I see it as the exact opposite. I mean, those four things are huge strengths. I come into a room with a completely different perspective than anybody else. I come in with a completely different community and constituency. I'm then accountable to bring in perspectives and to ensure other people can come in as well, but I'm so shaped by those experiences that I think it's a huge benefit. And I think I think we're slowly seeing a world that recognizes people's different perspectives and experiences as a benefit, and anybody who holds on to kind of an archaic like superficial assumption of people based on something they didn't even take the time to read or learn or engage in. I don't know if that's if that's something I I'm interested that's not something I'm interested in engaging in anymore. Fair,

Dina Sherif: 34:54

very fair. So you know, I want to say that you're always telling me, Dina, you need to. Speak more. You need to engage in public speaking more. You need to share your thoughts more. And I'm always saying I'm the introvert. I don't really like public speaking. And you're always saying you need to do it. But it's not always easy for women to own their space. And I want to ask, because I know that this is something that you encourage women to do, but I want to know, what advice do you have for women, specifically women entrepreneurs, specifically women entrepreneurs, who come from growth markets, which the work the countries that we serve as the Center for development entrepreneurship? What advice do you have for women when it comes to owning their space and finding their voice and using it?

Unknown: 35:46

What advice do I have?

Dina Sherif: 35:49

I just want to tell everybody she does not shy away from using her voice.

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 35:53

Well, no. And the reason I think you should more is because, Alhamdulillah, for the past 1012, years, I've gotten the benefit of your guidance and advice, and I actually think it's completely changed the way I look at maybe one on one. No, I know, but you should give it, bestow it upon more people. And I think actually my biggest piece of advice is to just do it probably, I mean, nobody is inherently comfortable with engaging, and a lot of it, I mean, there's some things I said years ago where I'm like, Oh my gosh, did I actually say that in an interview, if only you had the benefit of what you know now or, well,

Dina Sherif: 36:25

it made sense at the time. This is what I always say in the moment. It was the right

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 36:29

thing. Exactly. It's what it but you know what you know, right and so, but I do think part of it is so many of the women who I respect and admire. I mean, like, just aside from you, you know, faruza, Farhan, Jaha to Cori, Roy Mahboob, there's these amazing women who have such a depth and breadth of experience and knowledge and feel really not hesitant, but question the power of their voice a lot. And I actually don't think, I don't think everyone does that. I think we do. We assume, like, Okay, wait, am I the person who should speak up about this? You know, will I reflect everyone's perspectives? No, we don't. You won't. And nobody holds, you know, and I'm not picking on James's here, but nobody holds a guy named James to that account. He's not supposed to represent every single woman from the global south always, or every single man from the Global North. That's not we're the ones who are supposed to come in and represent a community behind us at all times. And so my one piece of advice would be, no, you show up with your experience, with your expertise, and represent yourself and your constituency to the best of your ability, but at least show up, because the alternative is that those conversations happen without you and and then that perspective is never

Dina Sherif: 37:48

heard. Yeah, somebody very close to me recently said, When you choose not to speak, you're choosing not to you're depriving the group from the value that you bring

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 38:01

100% and you're and you can't complain then about any of the outcomes, right? So like, if you chose not to speak up, and the solution is not one that reflects lived experience, or you don't think will actually be able to be implemented, because it's not realistic, then you don't actually get to say anything, because you you abdicated that account, that responsibility, right? So I do, I think you're accountable for it when you're in any space. And I also do think particularly, and I will say for for women from from our community, from our region, the assumption is that we don't, and so part of me feels like it's even more important, important a responsibility, because then if my daughter can't see women like her speaking up, I don't think she'll feel as comfortable. So I think it's something we in the same way every generation before us has done it for us. I

Dina Sherif: 38:50

worry sometimes that we we put the burden on women like you to carry that for us. And I don't think that's right. We should be right.

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 38:56

I think we all should. No, I think we all should. And I think that, and I think that's where we that's where we build something greater than a single story. If it's just one or two or 10 or 15, that's the challenge, right? Because that's the only perspective that an audience is getting. But imagine if it's 100 210,000 get all those, you know what I mean, and then people can see the diversity of experience, of perspective. I mean, you and I don't agree on 95% Well, probably that's not I don't know about that. I don't know about that, but we don't agree on a lot. Yeah, if nobody hears you, we agree on a lot more than what we do is true but, but I hear you, then they assume my perspective reflects a group which is not always,

Dina Sherif: 39:35

which is not always the case. So you, you, you spoke a little bit about the importance of economic inclusion of women. And I want to zoom in a little bit on that, because since this is the the Center for development entrepreneurship, we know that. You know the data is there. The World Bank has numerous times and multiple studies talked about. About how gender equity in the formal labor market can lead to massive increases in GDP growth. Seems pretty simple. You know, when you talk to like Libya or in Egypt or in Nigeria or Brazil or in Indonesia or wherever, it seems pretty simple. Create gender equality, you're going to see massive impact on your economic prosperity journey. But yet, we're not seeing it. We're just not seeing the numbers. And you know, I think women led ventures can be a big part of boosting prosperity and women in senior executive positions, and women as policy makers, you know, women's leadership. You say this all the time. It's not a nice to have. It's an absolute essential, but the numbers are just not there. So my question to you is, what do we need? And I know you believe in the power of narratives and stories. I mean, because I want to say that from so many angles, so many of us have worked on the importance of economic inclusion of women, and we talk about what policies need to be in place, and we talk about boards and governance and putting women on boards, and then, you know, the world banker, the IC, creates some special certification for women to sit on boards that I think is, you know, a little condescending. But anyway, let's move on from that. You know what I mean, what? What do we need to do to really shift mindsets and to create that space that would allow for gender equality in, I want to say in the formal labor market, because women carry the brunt in the informal sector. And

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 41:54

I think that's actually part of it. I think it's recognizing all the work that they do do informally, and actually compensating for it would be one piece of it, but, but beyond that, I actually don't think women's inclusion in the formal economy is solely an economic problem or a gendered problem. I actually think it's and we've, we've been talking a lot about this at work, but there's this kind of this notion in many of these developed countries, where you're seeing aging populations, and an assumption that in in frontier and emerging markets that would be able to help compensate for it, because you have all this this younger population. And when they actually looked at it, they were like, wait a second, we're not seeing the economies we thought we would. Because it's not an age demographic challenge, it's a gender it's a gender one, it's a gendered one. So we're still having that kind of economic gap, right? And I think it's multi fold. I think it starts from the very beginning. I mean, if we talk about everything from girls education to, you know, and secondary education, in particular, the ability to actually be able to enter the formal workspace, the informal networks, relationships, access to financing that you need all of that. All of those are pieces that we actually do have to be able to deliver on. But I think the deepest one is we don't. We often talk about the absence of, not the benefit of and I think that's what I'm seeing shift which is exciting. And when you talk about the power of narratives, I think it is the benefit of women led resilience, or the benefit of women's engagement in the economic market, it's what

Dina Sherif: 43:28

entrepreneurial language, exactly from scarcity to abundance, exactly

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 43:32

no but 100% because that's what it is, right? What we're saying, we're not saying that this is somehow going to completely and it will, let's not deny it will shift norms in workplaces, communities. It'll shift health outcomes. It'll shift education outcomes. All that's true, but what we're saying first and foremost is that it will actually create the opportunity for greater economic growth for everyone. And I think starting from that as a spot can be helpful. The other piece, I'd say, is there's a lot of these niche like women fund, you know, like women, you know, to your point, something that'll come out of the World Bank that's quite niche, or we'll talk about, like, women's economic empowerment as a separate and I think something that's super interesting is the sheer amount of funds and resources that are put into something like, for example, climate Have we ever looked at that and said we're going to earmark to make sure that A percentage of this goes to women led ventures, or we're going to because that, I think, is the piece that's kind of missing, is we have all of these massive existing institutions, policies and norms. Can we actually say we're going to, as as part of the total amount require that this is, this is leading to more of an inclusive growth, that we're actually taking that into consideration when we make decisions. So it's not a niche $50 million fund, but it's that broader 16 billion that the World Bank is programming for climate large. So I think pieces like that, one thing I will say, the women peace and security movement did quite well, although I don't think it's implemented well enough at all, is create things like National. Action Plans, like, what does good look like? And very few countries have implemented them effectively. I

Dina Sherif: 45:05

was going to say, the plans get done. And then what? Very but, but for women's,

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 45:10

for women's engagement in the form formal work, like formal market space, I think the challenge isn't just the plans. It's okay. If you can actually tell me, what are the Beck like, the big bets. What are the best buys? Who do I need to what do I actually need to invest in within that value chain? Because it's not I need to go and invest in 50 women entrepreneurs. That's not going to solve the problem. So what is the marriage of solutions within that plan that I need to actually take into consideration, including the structural issue, including the structural issue, exactly, because that's where I think you can actually but right now, it does feel, and this is true across health, this is true across climate, this is true across everything. It does feel like we do things in a in a very kind of siloed, piecemeal way, and how can we actually integrate them? Because if you do get more women who are who have agency over their own resources, who can spend them how they choose, who can you're going to have women who are choosing to space out their kids more get married later. You're going to have much more effective health interventions and outcomes. It actually does create a domino effect for the entire community. It's not simply about that economic opportunity. And so how do you actually paint a picture that shows that investments in health could actually be complementary to some of the investments you're making for women's entrepreneurs? Women's Entrepreneurship could be reinforced all interconnected. Yeah, it could be reinforced by climate funding and other things to show that you can actually build resilience that in a more holistic way.

Dina Sherif: 46:32

So let's talk about women's health a little bit. So you've been, you've been at, you know, you spent the past several years working at the Gates Foundation. And, you know, I often come to you and I said, I heard you talk say this about women in health, and I heard you say when I was blown away, and I'm like, thank you so much for saying, I say that to you all the time. But you know, Women's Health is is such a significant issue right now. And I think even though we're seeing this kind of rise in what we call femtech, and we're seeing more entrepreneurs take on issues related to women's health. We're not seeing enough of it, and we're certainly not seeing enough capital be allocated specifically to this space. And you know, I want to say that women's health is not an issue of only the underserved or the poor. It's an issue that every woman continues to suffer from, including myself. And you know, I always talk about when I was diagnosed with cancer, how how lucky I was am to have been able to advocate for myself, because I have the ability to do my own research and the social network to find people and get advice and thoughts and to consult. And I think if I didn't have that, I would have been so lost in the system, and I'm not sure my outcomes would have been what they were. You've been in this space for a long time. You worked at the Gates Foundation, the largest foundation investing in public health right now, from your perspective, and from the years of working in a big foundation like that, is that enough? I mean, is it enough for a foundation to the what? What do we really need to change to level the playing field and to completely shift this entire field of healthcare that has been designed around the body of a white male? Yeah, it's

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 48:39

an excellent question. I don't think any one foundation, I don't think any one institution, can solve the problem on their own. What I think the benefit of the Gates Foundation is, is that it can take risks that governments could ideally scale governments and other partners, I will say, on women's health specifically. And this is a little bit married to your last question on economic opportunity and leadership. For me, Women's Health is, I think, the starting point. It's really challenging for me to go up to a young woman and say, hey, you need to be a political or an economic leader if she doesn't have agency over her own choices, her own body, she doesn't have the access to health and opera and care, I think that's the gateway to opportunity, in my mind. And so for me, health really does become the cornerstone, the cornerstone, right? And to your point, when you have access to care, when you you can be your own advocate. Imagine if you didn't have those systems at all. Imagine if you didn't have those resources at all, not that you didn't know them, but that they just didn't exist where you were. And so the fact that a young woman can completely that the trajectory of your life is completely shifted based on where you're born. Yeah, because of the what it means for your access to care and for your access to opportunity is something that I think is just incredibly unjust. And so a huge amount of my especially in 2024 especially in 2024 and I mean, you can point to speak. Specific things. The fact that we still have women dying in childbirth, to me, is absolutely, you know, and I heard your last when you spoke about that, yeah, we have, we have solutions that cost less than $2 that cost less than $1 um, literally, plastic drapes that can help save not just the mom, but the baby, the family, the community. So to me, that that one is, is, is really stark. But I think the, I think for both economic empowerment, economic opportunity and leadership, and for women's health, one thing we don't talk about enough is power, and women are not often the ones making a lot of the decisions, right? And so if you're looking at, for example, the investment in global health, R and D, that goes to kind of women's specific issues, it's less than 4% and if you take out cancer, it's less than 2% and that's pretty shocking, because women have a lot of women specific issues that actually mean quite a bit for them. Even within

Dina Sherif: 50:51

that cancer, most of it goes through a very specific cancer, and the rest of the women's cancers get the exact shorter end of the stick, exactly

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 50:58

100% and so I think part of it is okay, who are, who is a who is sitting in decision making spaces that we can advocate to, I think is critically important. That's one area where the foundation really takes a leading approach. But then also, how do we get more women in those positions that are making decisions around those resource pools? Because I do think the more funding we can get into women's health research, actually, the more cost effective, the tools will be so they won't be so high cost. So they can get to more women. We can create better delivery systems and Access systems. So I do think part of it's it's not just a one size fits all. It won't be a one organization fits all. But what we have been able to do in the past three years is actually get people talking about it, recognizing that women's health is critical, recognizing that healthy women build healthy communities, and that's true based on every economic metric. And we aren't, I don't think we are in the globally, in such a positive economic landscape that we can ignore that large of a labor force. And so I don't, I'm pretty pragmatic. I don't care what language I have to use. I will talk about women as, you know, economic representative agents. I will talk about them in terms of productivity. I'll use entrepreneurship language. It genuinely does not matter if the end, if the end outcome is more resources and more policies that benefit women's health and women's opportunity. I'm, you know, I think we should advocate to everybody, because there's, there's a lot of positions of power that just aren't part of the conversation, and

Dina Sherif: 52:26

so many things would change if women were at that table making those decisions. So you recently launched a newsletter called Radical resilience. Resilience. I encourage everyone to subscribe, and it emphasizes that resilience isn't passive. You say it demands intention, collaboration and action from women in Senegal to systemic transformations in Bangladesh. You describe radical as going to the root of a problem, and resilience as more than just surviving. It's about fundamentally reshaping and reimagining systems. You know, resilience is a word that I think we often throw throw around very casually, and we always, you know, say to our entrepreneurs, part of being an entrepreneur, especially in an emerging market or growth market, is being resilient. And I think, you know, you, you reading your newsletter, it opened my eyes up, because we, when we say resilience, we do mean survival, and you've put it into something that is, I think, much more profound and bigger, which is connecting that to being able to reshape systems. So what was the catalyst for starting this newsletter?

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 53:47

I think my catalyst was community. Before COVID, I had invested in and really spent so much time and energy in community with other leaders, other emerging leaders, predominantly women from the Global South. And I, we had something called the Emerging Leaders lab. We spent two days together. We and we became very, very good friends, and have been a sustaining community to each other for the past few years. And I often get asked by young women, okay, but how do you do it? I have two young kids, like, oh, how do you balance? I don't there. There. I optimize. There are true things, right? And, and who do you look to? And I say, Well, you know, who are your role models? And I'm like, well, mostly the women I work with, the women I get to see in not necessarily in the same field as me, but leading in their own fields. And when I had to think about what I would kind of collectively define them as it was resilient. They are all people who withstood incredible change in their community, sometimes, oftentimes, were the ones driving much of that change at huge personal risk. And it didn't mean that they weren't committed. It meant that they were even more so. And that it was because of their faith in the in the power and potential of their own community and country that they were so determined to do it. So I I found that particularly important. And so many of them went through a personal experience that drove that, something that otherwise could have been completely something that in many people, I don't think would have inspired that kind of resilience. And instead, they took it and they said, Okay, how can I build from this? How can I change this so it never happens to anybody else? And then for radical, I thought it was interesting, because I get called, I get called radical, usually not in the most positive way all the time. So

Dina Sherif: 55:41

I get that. We all get that, yeah, truly. And so we understand Donovan's Beck there, he gets it too.

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 55:48

No, truly, like, literally. And so weeks before we were naming this, weeks and months before we were naming this, I was reading this book, and it was talking like this, and it was talking about how radical was just kind of to go to the root of and I'm like, that's not how we use it anymore. And, and I think we should re own that word. I think it's actually a very powerful one. And so the more we can say it's actually incredibly radical to demand change. It's incredibly radical to then build it, to build resilient systems, to, you know, there's, there's other terms people use, like anti fragility and, and I, to me, it's, it's less about the, you know, everybody should use the term they're comfortable with, but I like resilience, because it actually you get to a point where it is oftentimes fragile. That's a very human experience from at a community level, at a personal level, I think it's great for us to be able to build armor, but oftentimes that armor fails, not and in many of our circumstances, it's not necessarily choices of ours, but it's the systems and structures around us. And so you do have to build resilience, and I think there are the way to keep going. Yeah, incredibly powerful lessons we've learned, not necessarily from me, but from so many people around me that have kept me sustained. And so that was really kind of the impetus of the newsletter, is, how do I and I intentionally did it on LinkedIn, because I was like, I can either use this platform for updates, and, you know, when I give a do a panel, or I can actually use this to say I learned from some really incredible particularly women, and I'd love for you to meet them, and that's what, what we ended up doing, but do continue

Dina Sherif: 57:26

to share your panels, because that's how I get your you know, that's how, that's how I get to follow you. You know, I you're entering into perhaps a new chapter, I think, in your career. And I know you've been, you've been talking to me a lot about this internet intersection between health and climate, and you know how you want to start pushing more in that direction. But what I found really interesting lately is that you've been talking about the importance of capital allocation and investing in applying a gender lens investment approach, and really looking into investing in entrepreneurs who are in the climate space and in the health space, that's a massive shift. So what made you decide to say, You know what risk capital, venture capital, and how capital is allocated, is also an extremely important piece of this puzzle. And I always say this a lot too. I say, you know, for the past several years, I've always been focused on venture capital as the very beginning of a venture's journey, and beginnings really matter to how things end.

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 58:44

I will say you are one of the people who has influenced my approach, and you know that and my husband has influenced my approach significantly.

Dina Sherif: 58:51

Mohammed influences all of us. I know truly,

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 58:54

but I think seeing there were two things for me. The first is, in the past few years, we have seen the contraction of a lot of government funding, yeah, and I realized just how malleable that is, and we also see a huge surge in private sector and philanthropic wealth that I think can drive pretty significant shifts. For the past four years, I got to I served as the director at the Gates Foundation, and I realized how much you could leverage that to take risks and to be able to prove a case, right? And I think that's what we're missing. We don't actually, we don't invest the capital to even be able to say, look, this is this is a good buy. We've actually done this. We've tested that. It's great. We've done it in multiple countries. So where do you get that kind of risk capital? And that drove me more and more to thinking about, okay, what are those? And I don't think it's just funding. I think it has to be married with programs. I think it has to be married with really strong advocacy. But how do you more effectively, actually invest in it, to be able to prove okay, this is actually what works in a much more intersectional way, a much more multi sectoral way, so that, I think was one of the major kind of pivot points. Yeah. And the second was, I think there is a challenge in that sometimes we invest in programs in the from the global development perspective, that can parachute in and out, and I find that local entrepreneurs prove to be more resilient in that sense, they stay, they build, they expand, exactly they're invested in the community, and they reinvest in the community. And that, in and that, in and of itself, ends up being such an incredible engine. And so for me, it was the question of okay for and particularly women. Women, when they have economic agency, tend to reinvest much more in their community. And so how do we then look at women not as Okay? Let's think about gender equitable policies on health or climate or but how do we instead look at them as these like Central drivers of resilience and agency? How do we instead look at okay, if I invested in entrepreneurship that had a particular focus on inclusivity, not just women, but really looked at okay, this is the population I'm serving. This is how I can drive inclusive growth and had impacts on your health and your climate outcomes. What would that mean to to in a sustainable sense? So I don't, I don't think it's either or. I think it's both and, but I'm increasingly interested in in the private sector role, and I have been years ago, I was the CEO of a company called Impact 2030 that works with a lot of private sector companies and and I just, I find it incredibly compelling as we see more and more companies say, Okay, we're going to be more committed to these principles. How do we actually then leverage that at the very local level? And I do think that's oftentimes local entrepreneurs. So

Dina Sherif: 1:01:36

maybe time for you to come work with us. You know, we, I mean, I, I'm joking, but not joking, but the center, at the very core of it is this belief that entrepreneurship and innovation is extremely critical to creating sustainable prosperity. And for years, you know, global development has not included entrepreneurs in that process, specifically innovation driven, entrepreneurs who are using technology and are indeed to solve complex challenges. And you know, entrepreneurs get taken seriously when they've reached that billion dollar status. And we want to say, take them seriously from the beginning, because they will be the ones who are transforming systems and doing that. So

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:02:23

then it's that the innovation piece is particularly interesting, because I think if we don't invest in local entrepreneurs who are driving innovation and making it more accessible, then you actually create an even bigger inequity, and economic inequity, where people have access to innovation, people get to use it, people and some don't. And I think that's also a risk. So it's also kind of, it's not, it's it's sustainable, and it's more equitable if we actually invest locally, and if we do it in a much more intentional way, and we actually build opportunities and systems around and I wouldn't just say it's, it's the venture capital, but it's also what kind of partnerships and relationships that do you then build with local and national governments or sub national governments to be able to ensure that, then they create the necessary regulatory framework, pathways or or some of the necessary partnerships to ensure that those entrepreneurs

Dina Sherif: 1:03:11

can leverage those other you know, where there's a professor, his name is Hal Gregerson, and in his work, he often talks about the compounded impact, the multiplier effect. And I think women, women entrepreneurs, are not just important to invest and say, Oh, we invested in women entrepreneurs, but they have such an incredible multiplier effect. And and I, and I love how you always bring that back into the conversation in the sense that women will always reinvest what they have in their society, in their families, their surrounding communities. And you you will see that multiplier effect always. You know, I see it all the time, even when we put, you know, tech, technology and innovation driven entrepreneurship aside and we just look at small businesses run by women in the informal sector, the first thing that women do is educate their children, and that leads to a multiplier effect. It's a consequence

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:04:10

of the unpaid labor you were talking about, 100% is that they then drive back any paid labor back into their communities, and they create greater economic opportunity for other women and men, which is, I think, incredibly So, how

Dina Sherif: 1:04:23

does this all funnel back into your passion of climate and health?

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:04:29

I think so my I always, my husband years ago, said, If you don't figure out what you want to do, other people will figure out what you can't do for them. And so he's always been very good at being, you know, be very clear about what it is you want to do. I do, you know, I travel a lot for work, and I used to say even to my parents, like, it has to be something I really believe in for it to be worth being away from my own kids. And for me, that is that every woman and every. Child has access to opportunity, and I only think that's possible through access to care. I really do. I think if you do not have health care, the rest actually becomes a lot more challenging, if not, frankly, and nearly impossible. And I think there are some key years there for women, it's, you know, their their entire lifetime, frankly, but those first five years for children are incredibly critical. And I also think the you then doubled the challenge. And you remember the floods last year in Libya there, you know, you double the challenge with these climate events and with the shifting climate that is going to be catastrophic in many of our countries, and is going to create completely new challenges that I don't think we have the infrastructure or the resources often to be able to face, but we do have the talent, we have the people, we have the innovation, we have the appetite. So I do think we've spoken a little bit about this, but I think the next step has to be something that really looks at people as they experience life, not kind of the vertical way we approach it, of like, oh, health here, climate here. Interesting for Yeah, intersected, for a woman who actually works in community, be her a small holder farmer or a community health worker, the same woman is the one trying to feed and educate her kids. She's the same woman who's trying to potentially start a venture, open a bank account. The same woman, genuinely, the same woman who is working those small holder farms, is the same one who's trying to get access to care, and until we start

Dina Sherif: 1:06:24

the same woman who has to deal with the aftermath of a flood exactly

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:06:27

the exact same one. And so I think if we start anchoring that experience as the starting point, we can actually start building solutions that then reflect those lived experiences and what's needed. And I do think elements of it will need to be resourcing much more directly, investing in women. I do think there is a piece that's not necessarily building an evidence base, but almost taking all of the data that exists, because there is a quite a bit, and being able and leveraging it for advocacy, making it more digestible. And then I do think there's a piece that is working with government and with institutions to say, okay, what are the policies that you have in place now? How can we make them more effective, working with existing funds and saying, Okay, how can we ensure that we're actually taking a much more inclusive approach to our investments and then leveraging health and climate outcomes as proof and evidence, not just the economic outcomes, but proven evidence of the impact, but it my, my thinking is in its infancy, as you know, and a lot of this is still I mean, please send me all your books and reading and everything that I should be doing to better, to better interrogate.

Dina Sherif: 1:07:34

Yes, we love it when people get interested in venture capital and entrepreneurship and innovation. I mean, that's just our preoccupation.

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:07:43

Well, I like, I do. Like the ability, you know, I like the idea of investing for impact. Yeah, I think that, to me, is incredibly compelling, and how we can do that in a way that truly shifts people's like, health outcomes shifts, you know, allows for communities to build resiliency to climate, allows for communities to really build robust systems of care. I'm really curious, and

Dina Sherif: 1:08:08

I think the reality is, and I don't think venture capital, very few venture capitalists realize this anywhere in the world. How you build your portfolio, you can build it in a way that can transform a system? Yeah, and that's a choice, and that goes back to some of the things you say about intentionality. And we just have to be more intentional about how we allocate capital, what we choose to do with our philanthropic investments, with our private everything requires intentionality. So I'm excited for what comes next for you, but I do want to ask you. So in my last podcast with Christopher Schroeder, he turned the table on me in the middle of the podcast, because, you know, you carry a gazillion hats and you play so many roles. I also, you know, carry multiple hats, but I don't think, I think I have, minus the fact that I'm not a mother, but you are, and you have two little children, but yet you have all these other hats. You're also a wife, you're also a daughter, you're a sibling of 10 others, of 10 other kids. So we only have 24 hours a day. How do you balance all of your roles? And I'm sure that you, like all of us, get bombarded with emails and WhatsApps and LinkedIn messages, and what is your trick to managing all of these different things and creating is there balance? I know you said earlier, there's no such thing as balance. There's optimization. Well,

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:09:40

I don't know if it's so first off, I actually want to hear your answer to that question, because I think you get bombarded with way more messages than not so sure. Not so sure. I tend to my first lesson is, ignore WhatsApp. No, that's awful. But I know that you do that I do, because you answer me quite late. I have Yeah, I do. Well, what happens is, actually, it's not even that I answer. I'll read something, and in my mind, I've responded to you, and then I'll and then, and then I usually reopen the message when I want to come back and ask you why you haven't responded to me. And I'm like, Oh, wait, and I didn't send that message, but you have another colleague who does that. It's a good strategy. It's a great strategy, but I do, I do have blackout periods where I just don't open messaging apps, and I will delete them from my phone, and I'll re download them as needed. And that's more just because if I've, if I have had a long travel period, I'm home with the kids for three days. I actually want to be 100% home with the kids, but I don't. So I don't balance. I used to be in like, this relentless pursuit of balance, where I was like, Oh, what am I going to find it and doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. Well, I read this great book, though, that that I have now used almost as has been incredible for me, which is kind of that you juggle balls in life, and some balls are glass and some balls are rubber. So your glass ball, if it falls, it breaks, and your rubber ball will bounce. And I used to think, Okay, well, then all my glass balls must be family, and all my rubber balls must be work and, and it actually is so much more nuanced in that, like, let's say you have a really big work trip and and you have to be on site for three days, that becomes your glass ball for three days. And my rubber ball for that three days is family. And if I come home and my kid is really sick, then that becomes my glass ball being home, putting them to, you know, taking care of them bedtime. And work is, you know, in my work project or meeting, or whatever it might be, is a rubber ball. And so it's more of a and it applies to everything, you know, my dad remind right now, my dad is sick, and so that becomes a glass ball. And I'll say, Okay, I have to drop other things. I'm gonna, I'm gonna prioritize this, and in this exact moment, this podcast is the glass ball. So I won't pick up my phone and, you know, check on my kids. And I think that's been the easiest way I've kind of maybe, like, I don't know, consoled myself. I love all the rubber balls. I draw the glass ball, rubber ball, yeah, but it's brilliant. I will juggle what is in that moment, what is, what is the most critical, right? And I'll give myself grace that I only have two hands, so I'm not juggling the rest. Yeah, and I think a lot of people in my family, my husband, in particular, my kids, even though they're quite young and haven't realized it yet my parents. But, you know, a lot of people give me grace because they know that I am trying to struggle. Your daughter

Dina Sherif: 1:12:16

was here in our office earlier this week, and I said, Where's mommy? She said, Dina, mommy's in Seattle working. She has to do work in Seattle, and we get to come here and play. And I was

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:12:28

like, I mean, look

Dina Sherif: 1:12:30

at this child. She's four years old, supporting her mom.

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:12:33

Oh, she does. Mashallah. They're amazing. They'll even when I when I'm getting sad that I have to go for a long trip, scene will be like, But Mama, it's okay. You're helping people live lives. And I'm like, Okay, I like that, yeah, but, um, but, of course, they like coming here. You give them chocolate, and you, you,

Dina Sherif: 1:12:48

I did not give them chocolate.

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:12:50

They found chocolate, but they love it here every single time. Like, did you see, did you see auntie dena? She's like, Yeah, I had some chocolate. I had some

Dina Sherif: 1:12:57

No. There was no candy love. There was no chocolate, ice cream, candy, none of that Auntie Gina gave them, none. So none at all. I don't think they see you without getting no, they don't. They see me as the Exactly. That's right, it's okay. We didn't, but we genuinely did not give them anything last time. But anyway, Donovan and I both want to ask you about hope. And earlier this year, you gave a toast at the times 100 impact dinner, and something you said stood out specifically to Donovan, and he wanted me to ask you, you said, I'm immensely grateful in a deeply bittersweet way, and inspired by the courage and dedication of health workers in conflict zones. You also worked in an area of conflict, and today you're consistently at the forefront of these very difficult conversations about gender inequity, food insecurity and climate change in areas of conflict. But somehow it still seems like joy and gratitude are deeply at your core. I want to i i want to say that that is connected to your deep faith and spirituality, but the question still remains, how do you stay so hopeful, even after everything that you've seen and still see around the difficulties of today's world?

Unknown: 1:14:19

It's a good question. Donovan um, it's been a long couple of

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:14:27

months. So you asking me this one is, it's been a year I remain hopeful. I don't I don't think I have the privilege of not being hopeful. Yeah, I think when I say like frontline healthcare workers, is bittersweet, because I am so grateful they are there for their communities, but it's so bitter that they have to be that they are in that position in the first place, and that we have global systems that perpetuate those inequities and those conflicts. I don't think I have the privilege of being. And hopeful I have, you know, I am incredibly privileged. I have had the benefit of two parents who were absolutely driven for my success. My grandmother was illiterate, never had an education, determined her daughter would, you know, my my mom was married at 15, and I was able to make my own choices. I have my life is a consequence of other people's action and hope, and so I don't think I have the privilege of it. I think it is I'm accountable, and a huge part of it is my faith. I am entirely accountable to use whatever gifts or or talents or access or networks or experience or knowledge, or whatever, I have been blessed, blessed to be given, which is not a reflection of me, I genuinely don't think, but a reflection and and reflection of you, but but to advance, to advance something I think, bigger than than myself. So I really don't think we have the privilege to be unhopeful, I think. And it was interesting these past couple of weeks, in particular, in the US, a lot of conversations where I'm like, Oh, what do we do? I'm like, you know, people have been at the forefront of of change and action in situations that are so much more challenging than any you're imagining. They have, you know, there are people in countries who have been taking on life and death there and, you know, to make change. And so I actually think we all have a huge privilege by nature of where we are, where we're born, so that's probably where I get hope.

Unknown: 1:16:33

Yeah, I think that's

Dina Sherif: 1:16:36

very fair. So since this podcast is called legacy of purpose. And I consider you somebody who's extremely purpose driven. And I think everything you set up until this point demonstrates just how purposeful you are. The last question I have is about legacy. And you know, you have two beautiful children that I love. I'm always excited to see them. You have a wide network of friends and family and all the people that you serve. But when you leave this earth, as we all will, how do you want to be remembered, and what is the legacy you want to leave behind? Oh,

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:17:20

what's the legacy you want to leave behind? I can answer

Dina Sherif: 1:17:23

that question after the podcast on

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:17:26

the podcast,

Unknown: 1:17:29

I don't know if I have that answer for you.

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:17:31

Dina, I mean, I would want to be somebody who did everything they could to ensure that all moms and babies could survive, could live healthy and effective lives, but I think that's kind of a mission I have for myself. A legacy is probably that I spent what time I could trying to build something better for others. I don't know. I don't know that I was a good mom, whatever that looks like. I don't know. I haven't answered that yet. I'm gonna, I'll spend the next five or 10 years figuring out what that should be. But, but I think right now, my legacy, my purpose for life, whether it ends up being a legacy to anybody else or not, is that I did everything I could to make sure other people could have healthy and prosperous lives.

Unknown: 1:18:27

I don't know if that'll amount

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:18:28

to a legacy, but it amounts to a mission for me.

Dina Sherif: 1:18:33

I think it's always those of us who are constantly evolving and you know, I think some people just naturally are always in this evolutionary mindset, and who are always pushing you reach one one mountain. You're like, where's the next mountain and where's the next thing that I get to climb? And you're very much that person. And probably I am to an extent too. And I think you when we talk about legacy, it is important because we're here in this world for such a short time, and we take that for granted. I think somehow we think we're going to be here forever, but actually you're here like for nothing,

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:19:21

yeah. But I think the coolest legacy is then, like, not what, but who do you leave behind? You know what I mean? Like, how if, if I've done this, you've touched exactly like, if I've done this right, there will be entire families, communities and not I like, if we've done this right, if we've genuinely said we're going to anchor women's health, and we're going to ensure that we invest in climate resilience, and we're going to look at we're going to ensure that, you know, a girl can choose when she wants to get married, and we're going to make sure that people have access to education regardless of where they're born. And it's like, if we've genuinely done that right, then there are entire families and communities, and that will exist, and that will be able to build out their. Own opportunities, and you'll have, you know, 10s of 1000s of hundreds of 1000s of leaders, and there will be so but I don't know if that amounts to my legacy. I think that's more. That's something I would love to see happen in partnership with everybody else who needs to help make it happen. And then I, when I very selfishly, think of what would my legacy be, honestly, my brain goes to my kids, and it goes to like, I really just

Unknown: 1:20:22

want to be a good mom. So no, I don't know what's your legacy, Tina,

Dina Sherif: 1:20:29

you're not letting that go. I'm not, yeah, like I said, I think for me, I I thought a lot about it, right? I don't, I don't have children. I'm not married. But

Unknown: 1:20:44

I think the

Dina Sherif: 1:20:48

whether we call it legacy, or you know what, what you want to have left behind when you pass on from this part of our journey on this earth, I think if I can continue to create spaces that allow all the different people in my life to thrive and reach their full potential, then that would have been a life well lived. And whether that shows up in me, you know, pushing Donovan to do better, or me standing by a friend in a difficult time, or me creating spaces like what we have here at the Center for entrepreneurs to find their way and to create communities that will make the world a better place. Shows up in many different ways. But I think for me, it's all about creating space for those around me, those I care about those I love, to reach their fullest potential. I

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:21:43

think you do that. I think you do that for more than just the people you love. And I think beyond that, you also invest heavily in them with time, with energy. I mean, the work that you do on entrepreneurship with resources. But I mean, I think aside from the center being a testament your entire, I mean literally, your entire life is a testament to the fact that you, you don't occupy a space without opening a door for others and you and you. In fact, I think open doors for others before you ever even enter them for yourself. So Well, I appreciate you well on the way to fulfilling

Dina Sherif: 1:22:18

I appreciate you saying that I don't know what it is with podcast guests reversing the podcast on me. Anyway, anyway. I want to thank you so much. Alep for joining us on this episode of a legacy of purpose, and I can't wait for this to be aired. I think conversations like this one really remind me of the incredible importance of what values based leadership really is, and how you embody that, and how you show up in your work, and how you show up as a mom and how you show up as a friend, and how you show up as a visionary fighting for women. And I think that the impact that you have had, and that you will continue to have in this world, is something that I'm deeply grateful for. So if you've enjoyed this conversation, please subscribe and share it with others, and you can find out more about episodes on Spotify or on Apple, or you can just come to our Legatum Center website or YouTube channel, thank you again for listening and looking forward to the next episode, soon to soon to be out. Thank

Dr. Alaa Murabit: 1:23:30

you for having me. Dina, thank you.