Stories are the Bridge to Every Opportunity | A Conversation with Maha Abouelenein

In this episode of A Legacy of Purpose: Conversations with Dina H. Sherif, we sit down with Maha Abouelenein to explore the power of communication, the responsibility of owning your story, and why she believes self-reliance is the most critical tool in your toolkit. Maha Abouelenein is a powerhouse in global strategic communications—a woman who’s shaped narratives for tech giants, political leaders, and entrepreneurs across the world. 

From her upbringing as the daughter of Egyptian immigrants in Minnesota to building bridges between global brands and the Arab world, Maha shares her journey, her principles, and her hard-won insights into leadership, legacy, and being a woman in rooms you were never expected to be in. We also unpack her new best-selling book, The 7 Rules of Self-Reliance, and discuss the messages she hopes entrepreneurs, women, and changemakers in growth markets will carry forward.

Whether you’re building a startup, a personal brand, or your own confidence—this conversation is for you.

Host: Dina Sherif
Produced by Donovan Beck

For Media Inquiries:
Donovan Beck

Communications and Storytelling Coordinator

Legatum Center for Development and Entrepreneurship

Sloan School of Management
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
292 Main St, E38, 5th Floor, Cambridge, MA 02142
don_beck@mit.edu

Transcript

1:00:00

(Music) So welcome back to Legacy of Purpose. Today I'm honored to welcome a friend, a global strategic communications expert, best-selling author, the amazing Maha Abulani. Maha's career spans over three decades, working alongside some of the biggest names in business from Gary Vee. I remember when that started, Gary Vee to Google to Netflix, heads of state, but beyond her impressive career, Maha's also a great storyteller. She has a wonderful heart. I have very vivid memories of being invited to your home in Egypt for Christmas. You're someone who deeply understands the power of narrative, trust, self-reliance, and shaping opportunities. I'm excited to discuss how entrepreneurs from what we call growth markets or emerging markets can reclaim their own stories. And why communication is the bridge for opportunity and how we can hear more about your new book, The Seven Rules of Self-Reliance. So whether you're an entrepreneur, a social media expert, or someone passionate about the future of global growth markets, this podcast, this particular episode is definitely for you. So Maha, welcome. Dina, thank you. First of all, thank you for hosting me at MIT. This is like, I feel I'm not smart enough to be here. I can't believe you've never been here before. This is such an honor to me, and I'm texting in the family chat, hey everybody, I'm going to MIT today. And then my nephew, I was waiting for a snarky remark from one of the kids saying, my sister's kid saying, it's the closest you ever knew to get to going to MIT. Come on, the honor is ours. No, no, it's great to be here. And I like the energy on campus. I grew up on a college campus. My dad used to be a professor and dean of a business school in Minnesota. So this is home to me coming to be on a campus. We'll make sure that you get a little tour. Yes, and some swag. I got to get some stuff. We'll get you swag. Swag. Swag's so easy. Down the street. Across the street. Across the street. So let's hop right into it. Yes. I'm going to go deep. So I've known you for a really long time, and I've always seen from your social media how much you love your sister, how much you love your sister's kids and family. But it wasn't until I started reading your book that I understood how deeply your story was entrenched in the story of your family and the history of being an immigrant in this country. But I want to start from the very beginning. Like me, you're Egyptian. I call myself the daughter of the Nile. So we're also African. And you grew up as the daughter of Egyptian immigrants like me here in the US, but you also moved back to Egypt. But you speak often about your dad. And it was very clear to me from the beginning of the book how deeply impacted you were by your parents and specifically your father and how you define resilience, I think, in many ways in relation to what you learned from him. So tell us a little bit about your relationship with your family and your parents and how that has shaped who you are and how you show up in the world. Yeah, I mean, I am born and raised in Mankato, Minnesota, a very small town in Minnesota where everyone is blond haired and blue eyed. And I was the only brown girl in my school. All the Egyptian, there were no Egyptian families. There was no Egyptian community back in the day in Minnesota. And so we kind of, I stood out. I stood out definitely compared to all the other kids in my school. And when you're young, you just desperately want to fit in. You don't want to be different. You don't want to be-- Especially when you're like in Egyptian and Minnesota. Yeah, you don't want to be unique. That's not something that's celebrated. But inside the four walls of our house, it was Egypt. The rules, the food, the language, the(Inaudible) the Quran. Like I-- Gotta be. I grew up in that culture very much. No boys can call our house. A lot of strict rules. And then open the door a year in the United States of America. Prom, football games, American culture, parades, Fourth of July. The typical American upbringing. I had a great childhood. And when I was 27, my mother when I was 14 years old, she got multiple sclerosis and she was quite sick. And when I was 27, my parents after coming here to the US to go to school, ended up staying more than 30 years in the US, had me and my sister, decided they were going to go back to Egypt. And I was taking care of my mother because she was very sick. And so I moved back with my parents at 27. I don't have a job. I don't have any friends. I don't speak Arabic. I was like a fish out of water. Like I could not-- It's a little bit of Arabic. Not even shwaya. Like not even the word shwaya was something I was capable of saying, right? And so when I got to Egypt, I'm like, OK, I have to figure out how to navigate this new life. Plus I'm caretaking for a very sick mother. And so you learn a lot about your culture and resilience and how do you adapt to change? How do you adapt to new lifestyles? Then I had to like figure out my job. I got to figure out how to network. I had to build relationships. I made a lot of mistakes because you don't know. The culture is so different from the US culture to the Egyptian culture, even in business. Like in America, we get straight down to business. KPIs, results. In the Middle East and in Egypt, you have to take your time. You have to walk slow. You have to get to know people. You have to break bread. You can't just go for the kill. Oh, no. You got to build up the relationship. Build up a relationship. Ask about their families. Get to know them. All business is personal. So there was a lot of navigating I was doing, not just personally because I lived there with no friends and just kind of navigating that, but just also professionally. Like how do you build a new way of operating, a new way of working? And I really wanted to work for an American company in Cairo because I felt like I could succeed there. I thought comfortable doing that. In the US, I was working for General Mills, Fortune 500, Consumer Package Goods Company, Wheaties, Betty Crocker, Cheerios. Moved to Egypt, wanted to get a job at P&G, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, couldn't find a job. I get offered to be the secretary of a billionaire, Nagib Sawidis. And I went home that night going, I don't want to be a secretary. Like I'm overqualified. I have a master's degree. I was full of myself. And my father gave me some advice at the time that I didn't have his foresight. And he said, you just moved here. You don't know anybody. If I were you, I would take that job. And start somewhere. And start from the bottom and learn your way about how to do business. You get close to the sun working for a chairman of his stature. You're never going to have that access ever. Learn how to network, how to build relationships. And that's what I did. I'm like, I'm going to sit outside his office and answer phones and schedule meetings, which is what I did. But I'm going to be a pleasure to work with. I'm going to network. You know, I didn't even know that part of your story until I delved deeper. I hadn't realized that you started out working with Nagib. As his secretary. Yeah. And he had just was acquiring Moby Neel at the time. And after four months of me grinding and asking, can I do something? Can you give me anything in responsibility? Just nagging him, please give me something else to do. Give me more. Like, can I sit in the meeting and take notes? And I read every piece of paper coming in and out of his office. I was going to study. I was going to make the most of it. And after the fourth month, he finally said fine because I was such a nag. He was like, OK, we're going to try to apply for licenses to win mobile networks because he had just Egypt. It's a commercial, financial, and technical offer. There's a technical offer. The CTO will write it. There's a financial offer. Our CFO will write it. There's a commercial offer. You did marketing at General Mills, right? You write it. Commercial offer. You're going to write it. And I was like, what's a commercial offer? I didn't like that's a term of sales and marketing. I didn't even know what that was. And guys, this is before the internet. So this is 1997. But you're like, my, you're like, I'm going to do it. I was like, I can't Google it. Like there was didn't exist at the time. So I was like, fine. I'll do it. I'll figure it out. And I'm like, if I don't know something, I just have to put in effort. Like I have to put in hard work. I have to figure it out. I have to like try to outwork everyone else in the room. We won 18 licenses. Yeah. And I went on from being his secretary and office manager to being a part of the largest IPO in the history of Egypt, the largest acquisition in the history of Egypt. And then we became business partners. And we opened Weber Shandrock's offices, a global PR firm in the Middle East. And then I went on to start my own firm, run communications at Google, run communications at Netflix, and work for the real world of Dubai. So that's kind of my story of how I started in the US, moved back after living in the region for 23 years. The pandemic hit. You came back to your sister. I moved back to the US in 2020, reverse engineering my life again, because I moved back after living overseas for 23 years. I don't have any friends in the US except for my sister and their friends. I don't have a job. It's a pandemic. The world's on lockdown. I have to figure out something else to do now. So let me write a book. I did write a book, yeah. But I really want-- I mean, your story is very touching. I was very touched by-- it's really hard to be a caretaker. And you were with your parents. They both were sick. And you were building your career and taking care of both your parents at the same time. But it's clear that there was a very deep bond. And how did that experience, that very personal experience, shape you and give you what you needed to keep going forward after they were gone? I know what loss is like. I've lost my brother. I've lost my father. But I also know what it's like to be sick, because I'm a cancer survivor. So I've also seen the other side of what a caregiver goes through. Has to go through. Yeah, so a big part of my story. My mom had MS multiple sclerosis for 22 years. So I was caretaking for my mother most of my life, from age 14 to 36. My father got-- and I became very close to my father when my mom got very sick. And I was really tight with my dad, which is why a through line of the big part of the book has to do with him. Then my father got ALS. And Lou Gehrig's disease is terminal. The minute you get it, your body's in a coffin and you are on the clock to die. And that was devastating for me, because I was extremely close to him. Having one parent with a neurological disease is bad cards. Having two at the same time is a lot. And I'm living in a foreign country for me. And I'm trying to navigate, finding myself, who am I, how do I have friends, how do I build a relationship, how do I navigate my life. At the same time, I'm making all of their medical decisions. I'm spending paying for all their expenses. It was a lot. And I actually, a long time-- and I do reflect on it. That's rule number seven in the book, as I was asking when you get to that. It just taught me a lot about myself and taught me a lot about how to be empathetic, how to be really patient. I can't get frustrated with them, because they're going through something much worse. So much. And I got a lot of perspective. If I was having a bad day, all I had to do is just turn over and look at them. I can literally get out of bed and put my feet on the ground and walk, and they couldn't. And I became very close to my mother, because she really reacted a lot to me out of all her caretaker. I was her caretaker for her whole life. And then when my father got sick, I wasn't going to let him not be without it. But I was always trying to find the small comforts I can do for them. The small things I can do to make them happy is that the favorite blanket, is it a special song, is it something in the food? So looking back now with that whole part of my life, I'm very grateful that it happened to me, because I wouldn't have had it any other way of all the stress and the struggles and anxiety and of them being sick and going to the hospitals and stuff. But I feel like it taught me so much about how to be strong and rely on myself. And I wanted to share a lot of that story in the book, because I wanted my niece and nephew, when they read the book, to say, "Listen, you have to show up for people, even when your circumstances may not be the thing you can control, you need to really do your best with whatever you can." And especially with your family. And especially with your family. Lay at home. So I want to talk a little bit about, also because I get it, the dual identity, the kind of like, Egyptian, am I Egyptian? Am I American? Am I too Egyptian here? Am I too American here? Which part of my identity do I like? Oh, yeah. What comes out or... And eventually you find a way of embracing all of it. But I'm sure deeply influenced your own approach to storytelling and leadership in business. And there are many people out there who are kind of dealing with this kind of complicated identities. But how do we embrace identity and some of the more complicated identities that we have when we show up and share our story in business? Yeah, I think a big part of when I, like I said, and I grew up in the States, I didn't want to be different. I wanted to fit in with all the kids. And then when I moved to Egypt, everyone's like, "Oh, you look Egyptian and your name's Egyptian, but you don't sound Egyptian. You're so American. Like the way you dress, the way you talk, your mannerism, like you're so American. Like that's not going to work here." And so I found my way. Like I found a way actually from a business standpoint to help, this is what I do for a living, is tell stories and help people build and protect their reputation. So I was like, "Huh, a lot of people think the Middle East is about X, Y, and Z, nothing positive. It's about entrepreneurship and it's about ambition. And it's about the stories and the creativity and the culture and the heritage and the food. Like how can I be a bridge?" So much more. Yeah, how can I be a bridge to help story tell around how to build bridges between East and West? How can I help American companies understand the Middle East better and do business there? And see the amazing opportunities of the youth and the ambition and entrepreneurship. It's incredible. And how can I do the same in the Middle East if they want to learn about the US, like help build those bridges? I mean, I tell the opening story of the book when I got asked to write a speech for the Prime Minister of Egypt because he was going to Washington and he knew like I had the vernacular and I knew how they operate. And I was very tight to the how American institutions and politics work. And I feel like if you can use your differences and turn them into a strength, that's very valuable. And I feel now that we live in a world where like look at the global markets today. Yeah. Europe is then a decline. China is closed off. Which market is everyone curious about wanting to business with, growing tenfold, the GDPs are off the charts, the youth are driving culture, content, internet, it's the Middle East. And so it's the one area of the world where I actually have expertise and I'm going to help people figure it out. And so I do that now through my work and through storytelling is really making sure that people see the opportunities there are not just because there's money, there's talent. Yeah, so much talent. Oh my God. Well, I mean, before you even got to being this like global communications leader and this book author, you were a journalist. You started out as a journalist. You did your homework. Well, Donovan and I always do our homework. I could tell. But you were a journalist and you know, journalists, to be a journalist, clearly you were drawn to storytelling at a very young age. So what was that defining moment for you when you realized that you want your life's work to be in this space, where you want to shape people's perceptions? You know? Yeah, so when I was a little girl, I, you know, this is back dating me, but you know, everyone used to watch, sit around and watch the evening news. It was like a thing. You have dinner, you watch the evening news. It was like-- There wasn't much to watch back in the day for our generation. Yeah, this is pre-internet. So I hope we, my family's-- Pre-internet, pre-Netflix, pre-blah, blah, blah. Yeah, we should watch Dan Rather. And like you'd see people reporting live from location. And I always used to see like, oh, reporting live from Cairo. I had this dream of I'd be the girl, you know, reporting live from the pyramids, doing a live shot. And then when I was in college, I studied, you know, mass communications, journalism, and I got an internship working for the local TV station. And I remember like, I'm an intern. So like, you're just doing all the work. You're just carrying the cameras, editing tapes, recording stuff. You're just doing every job they give you. And I remember being in the newsroom when information came in on Over the Wire. And that moment where the information comes in over the wire, and the newsroom has to figure out like, how to package it, how to tell it to the world and broadcast it through the night, then the newscast was just thrilling for me. That moment of you getting a message, how do you disseminate it? How do you break it down? How do you simplify it? How do you soften a blow? How do you tell something bad? That was like thrilling for me. And so that's when I got the bug. And I'm like, I have to work in communications. And either as a reporter or helping people tell their stories to reporters. And that's what I do now. Like I have a consulting firm and I help people tell their stories. But it's fascinating for me, the more we get connected through technology and the internet, you know, in this conversation we're just having in the hallway about, everybody has the power to tell their own stories directly to consumers because they have an internet connection or access to a phone. And you should be advocating for yourself. You should tell your story. You should share your expertise. You should share your thought leadership. And I feel like it's a really good time for you to do that because you can. And the internet is for free now. Who knows? Maybe someday it may not be for free. You could build your brand, build your reputation, create opportunities for yourself. And so that's how I fell in love with storytelling and I will forever be in love with it just because it's what connects us. Oh my God, that must be music Donovan's ears. Really? The ultimate story teller. Yeah, because you just like... His title is story. Is a storytelling, you know, person at the center. Yeah, it's so important. It's so important. It's what connects us. It's what builds that authenticity between people and teaches us about culture. We are all about stories here at the center. And even when we talk to our student fellows, you're going to meet later today. The first session they do is a session on storytelling. Good. And knowing their story and owning it, right? And owning it and not being afraid to share it or not being worried about how people will judge you if you do. Exactly. Which brings me to my next one because you in so many different interviews, you say, "If you don't tell your story, someone else will." And... That's so true. But when did that realization come to you? It came to me a little late in life, right? But, you know, it's such an important, simple but profound statement. If you don't tell your story, someone else will. Why is it important for entrepreneurs across emerging markets to know that? Yeah. So every entrepreneur or founder of a company has the ability to shape their reputations themselves. Everyone thinks, "I have a reputation. I don't know what... There's something I can do about it." I'm like, "Yes, you can." Because if you are not doing it, someone else will do it for you and it won't be what you want. So it's what people are saying about you in the room. So build strong relationships with people. That's your reputation. And a lot of people here have the term personal brand and they're like, "Oh, I'm not a social media influencer. I'm not doing that." That's all I'm talking about. That's you. No. Think about it as your reputation and don't you care about building your reputation. Yes, I know. An entrepreneur needs to be very deliberate and intentional about their personal brands or their reputations for many reasons. Do they want to attract talent? Do they want to attract investors? Do they want to attract customers? Do they want to attract the right partners? It's all based on reputation. Do I trust them? Do I not? Do I believe them? Do I not? Are they credible? Are they not? And so I think that's why entrepreneurs need to pay attention to this. Because it is the currency of society today. I will put my money behind a brand I trust. I will download an app that I know people believe in or that will work. And so you need to think about that. And people don't follow people. They don't follow a company. Right. It's so true. It's so true. And if you're really authentic and people trust you, you talk about that a lot. People show up for you. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. And they'll advocate for you. They'll introduce you to other people. They'll be super connectors. They'll maybe create an opportunity you didn't exist. It's just the way that the world works now. We think about who are our relationships and how do we serve them. Our networks aren't there to serve us. So let me ask you a hard question. You ready? I'm ready. When did you experience somebody telling a story about you that you didn't like and how did you handle it? Oh, in Egypt, it happened all the time. Because people misunderstood me. The Americania. Yeah. The American girl that was there. She's too aggressive. She's too this. She's too-- it happened to me all the time. Most of the time, it was just me not knowing the culture and making faux pas and having nice people tap me on the shoulder and say, listen, this is how we do things here. Be careful. Because that-- you might have had pure intentions, but it came off-- this happened a lot. I mean, it's not a one-time incident. But I feel like I learned and I grew and I understood how I need to operate and how I need to learn from that. I mean, hard lessons, but just very valuable of how you need to do that. And it's really important that you drive it. Because people will talk about you regardless. So imagine if 10 voices are saying things about you and you're not using your voice. Especially for women. Especially for women. Yeah. I mean, that really hit me. Yeah. That's why I was told you-- maybe I'm ready. Yeah. I think you're ready. I think I might be ready. Also, it's not about you have something to self-promote. It's like you have thought leadership. You have expertise. And I feel people want to hear from experts. There's enough people on the internet who aren't experts who are spewing their own stuff. Oh, yeah. For sure. So if you have credibility and credentials and expertise, you kind of owe it to the world to share it with them. I hear you. Come on, Dina. Come on, Dina. I hear you. I hear you. I hear you. And because-- I mean, there are so many ways that you framed communication in my reading about you that I found really interesting. You talk about communication as this bridge to every opportunity. I have a colleague here who always tells me communication is everything. Communication is everything. And I'm like, yeah, OK. But work. Work. The programs are everything. She's like, but how you communicate them is everything. And in your career, you've served as this bridge. Between different worlds, and you represented all these really big brands. But to say something as simple as communication is the bridge to every opportunity. I don't know how-- it's taken me a long time. And I think part of it is because I have this inner voice in me that's like, you can't self-promote. You can't do this. All those little things that they tell women. And so you're afraid of this over-communication. But the way you present it is so profound. Tell us a little bit about this bridge to opportunity. Communications can influence, can inform, can educate, can aspire. It's so much more than just telling a story. It has a purpose. It can diffuse, diffuse a crisis. It can amplify a cause. I mean, there's so many things that it can do. And I feel like in anything, in relationships at home, with your family, at work, with your friends, with your community, it's how you show up in the world is what are you communicating. And if you're not communicating, that's communicating as well. Like you're aloof. You don't want to participate. You're difficult to deal with. Oh yeah, obviously, it's all the time. Silence is also a form of communication. It is. And so that's why I think it's important. Are you trying to inform or influence or diffuse or amplify? Or there are so many ways that communications can be a bridge. And I feel like cross-cultural understanding, understanding other people's point of view, learning about opinions of others that we may not agree with. Like everything has to do with how we communicate it and how we choose to understand it. Yeah. Yeah. And you also say, in one of your recent interviews that Donovan watched, but I did not get a chance to watch, but you said, "Narrative is not just storytelling. It's power." And I think one of the biggest conversations that we've had at the Center since I became Executive Director has been the conversation of narrative. And how do we shift? This is when I started really understanding communication, right? Because when I first came to MIT, it was like, "We're the Center for Development Entrepreneurship." And we focused on developing countries and these kind of global south and third world countries. And we're here to help and it would make me so angry. And I was like, "That's not where I come from." I also come from a place of opportunity and dynamism and abundance and people who are hustling and playing big and creating a new future. And very quickly in the first year, I was like, "I got to shift the narrative." And so we stopped using emerging markets. We started talking about growth markets. The highest percentage of growth in the world happens in these markets. The majority of the world's population lives in these markets. The future of the world and the majority of consumers are now going to be in Africa. But yet in the media, we are always positioned as like poor destitute conflict. You get it. And so I said, "Here, I'm going to change the narrative." And narrative is power because we are changing the narrative. Now we have people say,"Growth markets all the time." Now we have people say, "Oh, we want to learn from these African entrepreneurs that you bring to campus. Oh, we want to learn from this and this and this." Oh, I didn't know that this happened here. So when you talk about narrative is not just storytelling, it's power. In your opinion, how do we continue to drive that message in a much bigger way? And if you are us here at the center and you're all about shifting narrative of these markets to places of opportunity and dynamism and abundance, what more should we be doing? One is you need to train everybody on the messages of the narrative that you want them to share. Arm them with the information so that they can tell it to their friends, to their family, empower them to be storytellers of the narrative through podcasts, through writing, through blogs, through social media. I feel like if there's a narrative that needs to change, everyone needs to amplify it. And so empowering people with the information so that they can. That's the first step. I think the second thing is a lot of people are they see things that they believe, like seeing is believing. So how can you bring the narrative to life? How can you show them what it looks like being played out no matter what narrative you're trying to convey? People believe what they can see. So can you give them examples of things in action of that narrative coming to life? And I think those for me are the two biggest things that I think can actually amplify a narrative to move it forward. But it's just and maybe a third thing is just like consistency and repeating, like rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. Don't get tired of sharing it because you don't know. You said that in an interview with Gary Vee. I did. Yeah. Rinse and repeat. Consistency. Oh yeah, be consistent. Yeah, it's really important because I feel like it's just like hearing an ad when you hear an ad over and over and over. It just stinks in. Yeah, the same thing. The narrative has to be repeated. Why do you think it's been so hard for markets like ours to own their narrative or to take control of the narrative that's being told about them? The loudest voices in the room win and we're just not loud enough. Size has to do with it. Scale has to do with it. Money. Money has to do with it. That's the issue. Yeah. Speaking of power. Yes. You've been a force for women entrepreneurs. I don't know about that, but I love championing them. You do. Not just women entrepreneurs, but executives and others, particularly in growth markets where visibility and leadership of women is not all that great. Not that it's all that great in the US either. But in an interview you said,"I played small for years until I finally stepped into my power." I had a moment like that. And I was like, "Were I living parallel lives?" I remember taking this leadership course in Amsterdam and in that course they attached these coaches to you. I remember her sitting in front of me. She's like, "I don't understand. Why are you always downplaying yourself? Why are you always playing this small game when you've done so much? You need to own your power." And when you said that, I was like, "It took me right back to that moment." And you've worked alongside again some of the biggest names in business and media, but I imagined it probably wasn't always easy breaking into these circles, especially as a woman, especially as a woman who is American but is also Egyptian. But what is it about being in these spaces that push you not to play small anymore and actually really embrace your power? Well, part of it was I felt like I didn't have a choice. I'm like, "I can either sit in the back of the room and just be frustrated, or I can change it by taking one step forward and sitting at the actual table." And I did. And it wasn't-- You weren't scared. It was easier than I thought, because I'm like, "If I don't believe in me, they're not going to believe in me." Yeah. But what got you there? Well, because I just got in so many situations where I got asked to do stuff I'd never been done before, and I'm like, "I guess I do this now." After I wrote that speech with the prime minister, I'm like, "I guess I'm a speech writer because I nailed it, and I crushed that, and now he wants me to do another one." So I can do that. And then I ended up advising several Egyptian ministers in the government. I was like, "I know nothing about Egyptian politics or anything, but I had confidence. I always had confidence. I always said, if not me who, and if not now when." I'm like, "Well, how come she can do it? What does she have that I don't? She has a better degree? Well, then I need to study more. She has more opportunities because she's knocked on more doors. I'm going to knock on more doors." I just had this always this thing in my gut about I can do it if I'm willing to put in effort. I can't say I want something if I'm not willing to put in the effort to do it. So it's easy for me to look at other people accomplishing things that I want to do when I wasn't willing to do the effort, then of course you're not going to get there. And so I always just had the confidence. Like, "I just have to... My dad taught me this." He's like, "No one can take away what's between your two ears." They can take away your confidence. They can take away your opportunities. They can take away many things from you. Self-doubt, all the things that they can... They can never take away your knowledge. And if you know stuff, that's something no one can take away from you. And so that just stuck with me. I came from a family of educators. My dad was at the Dean of Business School, my aunt, my uncles. So education was in our veins. I grew up on a college campus. My dad worked there every day for 30 years. I went to work with my dad. It's just how he taught us that the only opportunities you'll get are the ones that you work hard for and that you apply knowledge to. And he was right. But surely there must have been hurdles. Oh, so many. So many. Difficult moments. Could not have been a simple process. I got fired from jobs. Yeah. How did you navigate it through it all? Because women aren't allowed to fail. Yeah. Let's face that. People expect us to fail. You know, Nivina Tahari says this to me all the time. She says, "Women, people expect you to fail. So you need to prove them wrong." Yeah. I think when I moved to Egypt, a lot of people expected me to fail. They're like, "Oh, she's never going to make it. She doesn't understand the culture. She knows the business." And if you read the book, you'll see stories that kind of show how that played out. But I was head of communications at Google in public policy. I was running about 18 countries communications for them. I remember that too. I joined Google the day the revolution broke out. The Arab Spring broke out in the Middle East. And the marketing manager from Google was one of the people that was the anonymous Facebook page manager. So I was at Crisis Communications 101. The first day I took the job at Google. And after I finished my tenure at Google at four years, I came to leave Google to go back to my company. Facebook had an opening in the Middle East. And it was Middle East, Africa, and Turkey. So it was like a bigger remit. It was going to be a bigger job. And I'm like, "Oh my God, this is amazing. Maybe I should go for it." A lot of people that worked at Google ended up going to Facebook. So I knew a lot of the people. And I thought, "Okay, now I'm going to be like the tech girl." Like I went from Google and I'm going to Facebook. Like I'm owning this. And I did the interviews. And I got to... It's a panel. You... I had three interviews. And then the last one was with someone who's the head of the office in South Africa. Because it's an Africa remit, which I didn't have as part of my Google remit. And I failed the interview. I didn't do my homework. And I went home and they basically said, "You didn't get the job." After they told me like,"You're a shoo-in. You're going to get it. Just go through the process." Like I really thought I was going to get this job. And I was so pumped about it. And I didn't get it. And I went home. I was like, "I'm never going to... I don't ever want to feel this way again." Like I'm never going to walk in unprepared to an interview ever again. She was right. I didn't do my homework. I didn't study the African market. I didn't understand the nuances. I wasn't the right candidate for the job. And it broke me. Because I was like, "I never want to feel this way again. I'm going to make sure that I do my homework next time." And I thought, "That's it. My career's over. I'm no longer going to do tech comms. Like this is it." And I was like, "I was pretty upset about it." And then like a month and a half later, I got a job to work for the ruler of Dubai. And then I went on to launch Netflix. And then I went on to run communications for Kadeem. So I became the tech girl. Just a different path. Yeah. Yeah. So in a way, you went into that interview overconfident. Yeah. I thought I had it in the bag. Because I felt like I knew all the company. I knew the industry. Yeah. You can't do that. No, you can't. You have to be overprepared. Yeah. We all need to be prepared and overprepared. Okay. So I want to ask you about your book. Yes. This great book, Seven Rules of Self-Reliance, How to Stay Low, Keep Moving, Invest in Yourself, and Own Your Future, which has become a USA bestseller. Yay. I'm so excited. I'm so grateful. And I think it's been an inspiration to many. And I'm like kind of partially through. And I'm really loving it. But one of your key messages in this book is about investing yourself and betting on yourself, which is related to the story you just told, right? But can you walk us through what self-reliance means to you and why it's such a crucial mindset for everyone to have? I mean, I know the answer because I started reading, but you know, we want everyone to buy the book. The book isn't what people think it's about. So yes, please buy the book. It's on Amazon if you get an email. And it's not a self-help book. It's not a self-help book. So that's what I was going to say. First things first, it says self in it. A lot of people think, oh, it's about, you know, being self-reliant. I don't need anybody. I should do everything myself. She's teaching us how to like, shut everybody else out and just go all in on yourself. That's not what it's about. And it's not about being selfish, which a lot of people see that. What the book is, is it taps into your own power. Self-reliance to me is like, what are the things I need to do before I can reach out and ask you for something or try to bring value to you? So for example, I want to rely on myself. I want to know how to build a network. I need to have that skill. I need to know how to build a relationship with someone and keep a relationship and build a network. What if we have another pandemic? Am I going to say, oh, Dina, can I please borrow your contacts for something I need? Because I don't have any clients known. I need to grow my business. Can you help me out? I mean, I would gladly help you out. I know, but I'm just saying, like, it's a skill. No, I know. You're self-reliant. You know how to build relationships. And build that up again. And when you're at university, you don't know who your colleagues are going to end up working where. Build relationships with everyone in every level, in every stage of your life. People you work with at a company, go and friend them on LinkedIn. Make sure that you know who these people are. Have connections with them. Learn how to network through Zoom. It's a skill people need to have. That's one of the rules of self-reliance. A second rule over the book, which you just sort of mentioned, is this investing in yourself. So many times, people are like, oh, I'm waiting for my manager to invest in me or my professor to invest in me. Like, I'm waiting for someone to see me to invest in me. My message to you is simple. You have access to the internet? It's for free. YouTube videos are free. Podcasts are for free. Talking to someone is free. You won't charge me to sit with you, will you, Dina? I can learn a lot from you. So what I'm telling you is, if you are spending every night watching Netflix or every weekend going out to do other things, can you find 15 minutes in a work week? Can you find a Tuesday night or a Sunday morning to do something different and spend 15 minutes learning about chat GBT or an AI tool, or pickleball, or piano, or cooking, or needling, whatever you like to do? Learning is so good for your brain, but it also is good for your longevity. We live in a competitive market where I just don't compete with people in Boston. I compete with anyone with an internet connection who might be better at my job than me and with a hybrid or remote workforce. My competitive pool just got massive. So you have to always know, how do you rely on yourself? I'm going to try to be knowledgeable. I'm going to try to learn things. And be on top of your game. And be on top of my game. Plus, it's fun. It's fun to learn. No, it is. It is. You make it sound so fun, too. I like learning new things. My team is always like, I'm always at my company. We have something called Training Tuesdays that I started in 2025. I'm like, we're going to have-- because I think learning is something you should share with other people. And it's contagious. Like, it doesn't have to be a classroom, an online class. It could be learning language, getting undualing, whatever. Yeah. Learn. Learn. I love it. So I want to ask you, writing a book is not an easy endeavor. No. I've written one, too. And it's like, it's a process. And you have to be disciplined. But what was the-- and Donovan's laughing probably because he's done that, too, right? Yes. His book's coming out this week. His book's coming out this week. What was, for you, what was the true purpose behind writing this book? And how does it relate to what has become your life's purpose? Yeah. So I had always wanted, like, for 10 years. I'm like, I'm going to write a book. I'm going to write a book. And I was like, should I write a book about growing up Muslim in America? And moving back to Egypt, should I write about communications? And the reason I wrote this book was I really wanted to write it for my niece and nephew, to be honest with you. A 22 and 25-year-old niece and nephew. You know, most of my life, I was living overseas in Egypt and Dubai. I wasn't living at home with them. I had a great relationship with them when they were born. And I came every year to see them and spend a lot of time and talk to them a lot. But I wanted them to have this message that you can rely on yourself. You can create your own opportunities. You can create your own power. You can create value for others and invest in yourself and live with no regrets. And don't be a waiter. That's why I wrote the book, honestly. It was like, I want, obviously, many, many thousands of people have purchased the book and bought it and read it and loved it. But it was really a message for them about my life, too, because it's a different way of me storytelling with them and leaving something behind that they think they would value. Yeah. And for you, how does it relate to, I mean, you wrote it for them, but somehow there's something there's a fire in your belly that drives you. Yeah. I mean, I think a big part of, I mean, the book is not what I did, but how I did it. Yeah. And that's my purpose is my mission in life is to help people communicate better, right? Whether it's media relations or storytelling, communication, any type of communications. This is not a communications book. There is one chapter that talks quite a bit about how people can build their personal brands and their reputations through storytelling, which I think is important. But it ties to my purpose because I feel a lot of times it happened to me in life where if I didn't believe in myself to do it, I didn't think I could because no one had asked me to do it before and then I did. And I wanted people to know your circumstances can be like mine or worse. And that's not your story. I have two parents with neurological diseases my whole life. I moved to a foreign country literally without speaking the language. Moving to Egypt for me was important country. I moved back to the US when I was 50. I didn't know anybody. It's a pandemic. And if I can reinvent myself at any age or any stage, Then anybody can. Then anybody can. And it just takes effort and believing in yourself. And the reason why I put on the cover, you know, stay low and keep moving. Stay low doesn't mean mean stay low profile. It means stay low and focused on your goals because there's so many distractions in this world. Social media, doubters, comparisons, people telling you can't do it. If you didn't pay attention to everything around you, you're never going to pay attention to what's in here. And that's why I want people to like focus on what they care about. We are only on this planet for such a short time. So can you focus on what you care about? And the reason I put keep moving is because you're going to have setbacks. You're going to have bad days. You're going to have obligations. You're going to have things that are out of your control, but just keep going anyways, like reset and start over tomorrow. Yep. I say this all the time. You have no other option. One step forward. Just got to keep going. Right. But in an you also, you know, you said something in an interview that really resonated with me. And I think really resonated with Donovan. And I say this all the time. You get what you negotiate in this life. Yeah, it's as simple as that. And you said in an interview about your book, you said you don't get what you deserve. You get what you negotiate. And I it's not surprising that you and I think alike in this regard, because I think we've had our own kind of like life hurdles and where you have to kind of push through. And, you know, nobody's going to do things for you. You just got to go out and claim it. It's kind of why I always say to women, like cut the empower empowerment discourse. BS. Yeah, I know. Nobody gives power, right? Power is claimed. Yeah, you don't get to wait for people to give you power. You know, you get what you negotiate in this life. And my question to you is how maybe people like you and I who have, I think life has taught us that maybe early on. And and I think that's a real privilege. But how can we how can women and entrepreneurs in general, how do we work with them to develop stronger negotiation skills to advocate for themselves to tell their stories properly and to be in that mindset of you get what you negotiate in this life? Yeah, I think a big part of I mean, it's rule number three of the book. Don't be a waiter. Right. Because often in life, we're waiting for opportunities to come to us because we think we deserve them and we work hard and they will come. Or we feel like if we ask for things, people will judge us or we don't want to do things because we don't want people to, you know, we fear failure or we don't want to, you know, have that overlooking thought of, oh, why is she asking for things? Well, she should wait her turn. And I found throughout my life, and I've seen it observed from other people, that the opportunities that you want to take, you have to ask for them. And you shouldn't be shy about it. We like I said, we just got done saying we're only on this planet for so long. Dan, what's the worst that could happen? They say no. They say no. Yeah. But if you if you ask that might show initiative that shows that you care that show that you have ambition that shows that you have ideas like take the step and ask for it. So I don't wait like you're waiting for something to happen. Like nothing good happens in the waiting zone in the comfort zone of your life. And so I really believe that, you know, a lot of times people are like, well, when this happens, I'll do that when I lose weight, I'll do it when I get more money in my bank account, I'll do that. I'm like, don't do that, because the opportunities for Pat will pass you by. And other people who aren't afraid to ask are going to go out there and ask are going out there and gas and get it. And then you're like, Oh, I didn't know it was going to be that easy. So have the courage to ask. I think there's this like women are in condition to have this inner critic, and this like sense of self doubt. It's just like we need to break it. Yeah, well, it's a negative the limited beliefs that we tell ourselves like, sometimes I find myself doing that I'm like, I don't think I can do this. Oh my god, this is so hard. Like, how am I going to get through it? I'm like one step at a time. One step at a time. Break it down. Break it down. Ask for help. Self-reliance doesn't work. I'm like, I'm going to do it. I'm like, I'm going to do it. I'm like, I'm going to do it. I'm like, I'm going to do it. Self-reliance doesn't mean not asking for help. It means like do your homework before you ask for it. So you know what you're asking for. So I want to ask you about trust. Yes. I feel it's it's an I think it's an important thing to discuss because you also said that all business is personal and I only work with people I trust. Yes. I found that so interesting. Trust is so tricky. And I just have to ask you, like, what are your filters for how you figure out who you can trust and who you not trust? I've been in so many situations where I'm like, I trust this person. And then they go back, you know, I'm like, how the hell did I trust that person? Listen to your gut. So many times we don't listen to our gut. So that's the first compass or barometer for me. Like, you know, you know, if somebody if you can trust somebody or not. So that's the first you ask yourself. Yeah. Obviously, you can ask other people, you can get feedback, you can get referrals, but the barometer is you. We all have a gut. We know when there's something that's not right, but we do it anyways. And we're like, Oh, I shouldn't have done that. I knew it. I knew I shouldn't have done that. So that's how I base it. Plus, people show you who they are several times. So that trust has a lot to do with credibility and reputation. And you can you can see it. I mean, I diverged into a tangent. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about off camera. I'm sure there are a lot of things I would rather talk about off camera too. But it's just thinking about this. Meghan Markle, her new show, like everyone's ripping her apart and people don't trust her. And I'm like, well, that there's a reason why, like you need to figure out how to get that trust back. And once it's lost, it's very difficult to get back. That's very fair. Very, very fair. So in making the podcast, I always like to ask a question for Donovan. Spend a lot of time listening and reading to your conversations here in this little studio. And during that, Donovan was really moved by a conversation that you had with Gary B. And who said, and he's like, you know, digital giant, you know, think what you think of him. The guy is a digital giant. In the conversation, you said you and Gary talked about the idea that success isn't about being loud. It's about being consistent. We talked about this a little earlier. With how rapidly we're seeing the rise of digital media and creators or storytellers and how they utilize that, the need for consistent and clear storytelling has never been more important in the midst of like all of the noise out there. Right. And this is especially true for growth markets. And Donovan is curious about the stories from Africa and other gross markets that are most interested in you as a communicator. And we're seeing a shift in global dialogue and storytelling. From your perspective, what is important for artists, entrepreneurs and creators to think about right now in this moment, as we're seeing global power dynamics shift, as we're seeing a complete meltdown of, you know, bilateral aid, which I think will lead to breakdown of the entire aid industry over time. What what are artists? What should artists and storytellers be thinking and doing right now, especially from our markets? Yeah, I feel like there's so many ways to tell stories right now that never existed before. Poetry, books, like documentaries, films, like there's ways you can scale your stories that will not just inform people, but educate people and entertain people. So I feel like we need to be creative on how we tell those stories. Look at some of the best some of the sports in the world that nobody paid attention to got a documentary on Netflix and all of a sudden everyone's falling in love with those sports all over again. I feel like that's the way that people want to consume information and content is through those types of formats. And I find for places like Africa who have incredible stories in history and culture that they need to and storytelling is a part of their culture, right? Yeah, that's how they originally educated children in small villages. They would tell stories from one generation to the next. And it's important that they continue that but use digital communications to carry it, to scale it. AI, I think is going to be a big player in that as well. AI can help structure and scale stories like never before. It won't replace that human connection, that emotional part of a story or the human side to the story, but can help scale it and tell it in ways never been done before. Yeah. Yeah. Exciting times. It's an exciting time. So something else you wrote in your book, you said, relationships you build today shape the opportunities that you have tomorrow. And that's another thing that I also deeply believe in. And I feel like I've been blessed in my career, but I don't want to say that it was luck. I was very intentional about building very strong relationships and being very real in those relationships. But looking at like your career, what relationships have had the most impact on your journey? Like I can name people that have deeply impacted. Yeah, same. You know, who are those people for you? And do you have any insights that you can share with young people who could be listening to this podcast, probably some of our fellows that they should think about when it comes to building and cultivating meaningful relationships? Yeah. So rule number six of the book is called be a long term player. My number one thing for building a relationship with someone is don't treat them like a transaction. Don't use them. Don't say I'm going to do this for you if you do this for me. This isn't a tap to pay and get out of the store, download the whole season. Let's go. Like we really need to invest in relationships. I call it making deposits in a trust bank. So I want to make sure I'm going through life making deposits in many people's trust banks. So when they, you ask them about me, they're like, Maha bintagadaw, or Maha did this, or Maha always showed up for us, or Maha was always helpful, or she was willing to make an introduction and not worried about, oh, if I connect A to B, and they leave me out, are they going to be worried about they do something without me? You can't do that. Like you need to be a long term player. If you have good intentions, and if you help somebody from the bottom of your heart with good intentions, meaningfully, not because you're doing it because you want something down the line, I can guarantee you, it'll come back 10X. Invest in your relationships, invest in your college colleagues, your university colleagues, your work colleagues, at every stage of your jobs, pick up the phone and check on people, pick on the phone and check on people. You can also low lift with social media, share their work on social comment on their posts, that's showing up for somebody and it doesn't cost you a thing. It takes 15 minutes out of your day to sit and just show up for for I do that every single day. I'm like, I want to show up. What are they up to? How can I share their work? Is there someone I can introduce them to connect them to somebody? Is there a nice article I can share them because they told me they're really into cold plunging and I found this article I want to share, just the small things become the big things. And I feel like we live in a world where there's so much going on, but having a relationship is very meaningful. And we learned a lot during the pandemic about how much we need the human interaction and connections and with AI taking over the world, more than ever, build relationships. That's what's going to carry you. And that's why I say be a long term player because if you're thinking short term, no one's going to say good things about you. And that's your reputation. And you need to make sure that you are owning it, you're building it, you're protecting it. I call it treating it like a currency. It has value. I agree 100%. It's one of your biggest assets. Yeah, your relationships. But having said that, you just said it does you need to invest time. And you're very busy woman. I know because I follow you on social media. And you know, a lot of people on this podcast asked the same question, your time is incredibly valuable on and also time is not infinite. It's limited. And we only have 24 hours in a day. And out of those, we have to sleep and we have to take care of ourselves and do things like how do you how do you use that time? And how do you prioritize who you give that time to? Yeah, so first things first, how are you spending your time? Look at your calendar. That's simple. Look at your calendar. Look at your calendar. Where are you focusing your time? Are you spending? I have a no meeting Wednesday. Like I don't want to have meetings on Wednesdays with anybody. I need to do deep work. I need to do focus work. I know if I need to do phone calls or catch up on writing or doing I can do that I kind of carve it out. So I look at my schedule, where am I spending my time? Who am I spending my time with? And then I always work out first thing in the morning to signal to myself that you're the most important priority. If you don't take care of your health or take care of yourself, you won't be able to do any of the things you want to enjoy in life. Run a company, spend time with friends, go play tennis travel, you can't do anything. So I look I spent a lot of time hacking my calendar and figuring out what are my priorities of my time. I also look at like how much sleep I'm getting. I don't get enough sleep. I'm not a pleasure to be around. Yeah, took me a long time to learn that lesson. I'm like prioritized sleep. Yeah, I was I was like, I'll just stay up and work harder and burn the midnight oil to be more productive. That doesn't work that way opposite of what you need to do. Because you're not doing good work or smart work or strategic work that way. So that's what I think about relationships in my time about how do I spend it. And that's really important that anyone listening to this podcast, it kind of re examines how you're looking at your time. Yeah, because time is not forever. No, sadly. So my final question. Yes, is about legacy. Yes. This is legacy of purpose, after all. And, you know, all of your long list of accomplishments and titles and book that you wrote, all that is that, but at the end of the day, you know, we're all going to leave this world. And when that happens, when you leave, how do you want people to remember you? What do you want your legacy to be? I was I was a I was a great aunt. I was a good daughter. And I was a wonderful sister. That's really all I measure in life. And I mean that I'll start crying out because I feel I'm gonna start crying out. I know, I just feel like that's like I because I do tell some crazy stories in this book. And I have been so fortunate. I've lived everywhere around the world, work with the coolest people and the best companies and the nicest events and handle that I can say all those things. But like, I really, really want Kenzie and Zane to say I had the coolest aunt ever. I see what you do from there's no way they're not going to say that. I hope so. Coolest aunt ever. Anyway, thank you, because I'm going to start to hear now. Thank you for tuning into another episode of legacy of purpose. And this conversation with Maha, it's just a reminder of how important it is to own our narratives, invest in our communities, build our relationships, the ones that really truly matter. And it based on what Maha said, that starts with family. And from her insights on communication and trust her lessons on self reliance and resilience, I couldn't be more thankful for the time that you've given us. And as always, you know, if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, leave us a review. Yes. You can find more episodes on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, and as well as the center's official channels. Thank you again for joining me, Maha. And I look forward to our fireside chat later tonight. I can't wait. And you can get the book on Amazon. Get the book on Amazon. I encourage everyone to get it. It's a great, great read. I do encourage everyone to buy the book. It's well worth it. Thank you, Maha. Thank you, Dina. Thank you, Donovan. Thank you.